Prince of Nothing

[JGP]

Amusing. Personally, I think you should see it through.

[wolverine]

[quote name='LianeM' post='1750341' date='Apr 9 2009, 07.22']I think it's pretty reasonable to infer that non-jaded readers are not going to tolerate the level of brutality, misogyny, and unrelenting grimness in the novel.[/quote]

You need to be jaded to [b]tolerate[/b] brutality, misogyny, and unrelenting grimness in a novel? How do you become a "jaded" reader? How do I know if I am jaded? If I like Prince of Nothing?

[afterroots]

[quote name='LianeM' post='1750341' date='Apr 9 2009, 08.22']I don't think there was anything unreasonable or unfounded in what I said. I never called it "an obscure niche book read by freaks." But at this point I wouldn't be inclined to disagree with the second part of that, either, and am done with this thread.[/quote]

I'm jaded and a freak! What a day of self-revelation this has been!

[Shryke]

[quote name='afterroots' post='1750408' date='Apr 9 2009, 09.40']I'm jaded and a freak! What a day of self-revelation this has been![/quote]

It's a profound revelation, you should worship LianeM as a living God.


Also, again with the mysogony accusations. :rolleyes:

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1750199' date='Apr 8 2009, 23.22']Also while there is philosophy it's not as if the story is dependent on it. Most of it is thrown into the Ajencis excerpts at the beginning of each chapter. Usually between a line and a paragraph of philosophy violently jammed down your throat.[/quote]
I don't know about that. Skepticism and determinism, which seem to be big parts of Bakker's own philosophy, show up in the books often and are central to the three main characters.

Kellhus: Determinism
Achamian: Skepticism
Cnaiur urs Skiotha, breaker of horses and men: Using skepticism to approach overcoming determinism

Plus there's deontology in the metaphysics, affecting a lot of character interaction and some pretty important plot points. Wizards: Bad. Women: Under men. Damnation: Real, and the reason the Consult's trying to close off the world.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1750272' date='Apr 9 2009, 11.51']The spelling is phonetic. As soon as you understand that the umlauts aren’t umlauts but diaeresis it’s all crystal clear. The only oddity is that there is no established symbol for “this consonant is almost silent,” so the initial consonant in Cnaiür actually requires the pronunciation dictionary in the appendix.

Otherwise I can’t really see how the spelling could be easier. It’s [i]much[/i] clearer how the characters are called than [i]Ice and Fire[/i], for example, where you get [i]no[/i] help. First vowel in Tyrion vs. Tywin? You’re on your own.

But Bakker tells you if the last syllable in Serwe is silent or not: Serwë. It’s [i]not[/i] silent. Likewise, -ai- in Cnaiür forms a diphtong (same sound as in English “like”), but the -u– is a separate vowel and moreover is pronounced like in “sure”, not in “cut”. That’s what the ü tells you.

The only alternatives are:
a) Martin’s solution: give [i]no[/i] help for pronunciation. Cnaiur. Serwe. Skaeos.
b) Use mock-English pro-norn-see-EIGH-shun: nay-OOR, sair-WAY, skay-AWS. That would be terrible (at least to me), because it would pull me linguistically right out of the story every time.[/quote]

HE, great post. Despite my quibbles with Bakker, I really like his names. In most Fantasy written by American authors, I have problems hearing the names in my mind. Even knowing now how some names in ASOIAF are pronounced, it's still hard to imagine. I never had this problem with Bakker's names, and they might look similary in the written form, but it is actually possible to recognise different naming systems and therefore languages. I imagine the "main language" as a variation of greek, and it's nice to have a world that does not suggest a form of english as their main language. :read:

ETA: Question: Don't you pronounce the "C" in Cnaiur as "K" or as a sort of glottis before the "n"?

My problems with Bakker's books regard the abundance of violence /sexual violence against women (I don't need to read literature about those excesses), his portrayal of the Nansur Empire and a little bit his prose. I don't think a reader has to be jaded to enjoy his books, but certainly a high tolerance for written violence. That's not my cup of tea.

I'm still not sure if I will read the next trilogy. I'll decide after a re-read of the first three books, when I'm done with the other books on my to-read pile.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Red Sun' post='1750611' date='Apr 10 2009, 00.49']ETA: Question: Don't you pronounce the "C" in Cnaiur as "K" or as a sort of glottis before the "n"?[/quote]

No. In the pronunciation guide in TDTCB, we are told that it is pronounced Nay-yur.

[Jacen]

The "brutality, misogyny, and unrelenting grimness" in the Prince of Nothing is about on par with ASOIAF, so I don't see the problem.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1750737' date='Apr 9 2009, 20.34']The "brutality, misogyny, and unrelenting grimness" in the Prince of Nothing is about on par with ASOIAF, so I don't see the problem.[/quote]

I'm not one of the people who think that GRRM's books are so great, because they are gritty. The things happening to the innkeepers daughter and in the village with the gold are almost intolerable for me. The difference with Bakker is that you are not in the skin of the girl that gets gangraped. In some way, I have to admit that Bakker is more upfront about the violence, it is almost impossible to extract yourself from Esmenet's or Serwe's POV when they get abused, but I don't need to read about those things. (I know they are happening in real life every day.) I stopped reading The Blade Itself, because I was fed up with the torture scenes. But these are my personal reactions to violence in books.

The portrayal of the Nansurians as the stereotype of decadent Byzance, however, is a problem I have with the writing itself. I think the books suffer a bit from having to support too many concepts and being the chiffre for too many allegories (like the emergence of modernism incarnated by Kellhus).

[quote name='Paxter' post='1750628' date='Apr 9 2009, 19.00']No. In the pronunciation guide in TDTCB, we are told that it is pronounced Nay-yur.[/quote]

Okay, thank you. So, it's influenced by the english pronounciation of "knife" and "know", and the "K" got assimilated with "n". :read: /linguist

[Spring Bass]

[quote]I'm still not sure if I will read the next trilogy. I'll decide after a re-read of the first three books, when I'm done with the other books on my to-read pile.[/quote]

I'd recommend this, and recommend reading them very slowly, page-after-page. The first time I read through the whole trilogy, I read it too fast - while I greatly enjoyed TDTCB, TWP was only "meh", and I was skipping through pages to get to the Kellhus sections in TTT.

The second time, I also greatly enjoyed TDTCB, enjoyed TWP to a much greater degree (although it is still my least favorite book among them), and [i]loved[/i] TTT.

[quote]The portrayal of the Nansurians as the stereotype of decadent Byzance, however, is a problem I have with the writing itself.[/quote]

That's an interesting way to put it. Although obviously these are not fully fleshed out societies as the actual Byzantine Empire would be, they never struck me as "stereotypically" decadant in any way - in fact, the fact that they just more or less annihilated a millenia-long enemy as a threat to their empire's security suggests that they're turning the tide.

As for the violence - yes, Bakker is more up-front about it. I don't particularly find his world to be more violent than, say, Westeros; the main exception is that there is more humor in ASoIaF than there is in PoN. So you can have one chapter in ASoIaF where

SPOILER: GRRM

you find out that Gregor Clegane had been cutting off limbs off of some of his less-valuable prisoners, cooking them, and feeding them to the rest of his prisoners as well as the mutilated prisoners themselves, and then laugh in the next chapter as Jaime listens to Ser Daven Lannister's bitching over the Freys.

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

I could accept all this talk of phonetic spelling if it wasn't for the C in Cnaiür. I simply refuse to believe that there is any way that a silent fucking C could help with the correct pronunciation more than it could hinder it.

[Warg Arry]

First book is ordered. So in a weeks time. (well a little longer to read it) i can see what all this hoopla is all about. Also my husband is a fantasy book elitist. Sooo fussy. If I can get him to read it. and he likes it. Then it's a qualified all round winner.

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1750855' date='Apr 9 2009, 14.23']And I suppose that the Consult are into nihilism of some kind. And Conphas is into narcissism. I kid.

You make great points but the way I see the book is that a casual reader doesn't really [i]have[/i] to notice the philosophy, there is enough plot to go around. And if one likes the philosophy, all the better.[/quote]
I get what you're saying, and yes, I do believe there is enough plot to go around, but I think the casual reader would actually have to work to never notice that the books are saying that the darkness that comes before determines what follows after. Or all the discussion about doubt. The difference between those two and nihilism and narcissism or any other philosophy you could find in the books is that I feel that they in particular play a role in the narrative. So, I can't blame people who feel like they're hit over the head with the philosophy, even if it didn't bother me, and I warn anyone asking about these books that the philosophy could seem heavyhanded. Again, I don't think it's that bad, but I know any straight-up philosophy can be a turnoff for some people, and I've seen people complain about it with Bakker specifically, so I put the caveat out there when I recommend it.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='firqorescu' post='1750974' date='Apr 10 2009, 00.18']I could accept all this talk of phonetic spelling if it wasn't for the C in Cnaiür. I simply refuse to believe that there is any way that a silent fucking C could help with the correct pronunciation more than it could hinder it.[/quote]

No, this exchange was actually an ironic footnote to my statement that I knew how to pronounce the names, by the writing. I was wrong, though, because some rules for the pronounciation do require a english native speaker. So, the "c" in Cnaiur was not helpful for me, but a diversion. ;)

[Shryke]

Cnauir earned himself that random C by being awesome.

[Sis Who Swears]

I'm still cr-e-e-ping my way through the series... I'm usually a very fast reader but these fuckin' NAMES....

Still... I really like it and can't wait to see what happens next. I imagine I will enjoy it more on the re-read. Just started 1000-thoughts-whatever-it's-called. :rolleyes:

Oh and the reason for this post...

I just *peeked* (no spoilers for me!) in and saw this:

[quote]Cnauir earned himself that random C by being awesome.[/quote]

Cnauir... +1

[Sis Who Swears]

ETA: double post

[Shryke]

Hey, you should feel grateful. That 3rd book almost ended up being named "When Sorceror's Sing". /shudder

[Sis Who Swears]

:lol: Ok I'm duly grateful, that would be lame.
I'm surprised at how short it is, all the 'stuff that came before' and the big glossary at the end... maybe this one will not take so long.

[Shryke]

TTT is quite short, yes. But it's pretty action packed. I finsihed basically without realising it cause the last like 4 chapteres is like a solid 100 pages of climax.