EHK for MMA

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'll see if we can get a consensus over here and do the same over there. There is quite a bit of a ramp-up in boxing in the coming weeks so I should be able to mix it in with the upcoming discussion over there. The same number of people seem to be regulars over there including quite a bit of overlap between the two threads, but the boxing guys tend to post so infrequently that it's becoming a pain for me to have to go back four of five pages just to find the boxing thread and update the title all over again. The only thing is, now that BJ is the TS, if we move boxing over here, we'd need his ok that he can integrate boxing headers into the thread title along with MMA stuff. In the end it may be unworkable and if it is then I can understand that.

Like I said, I was just shooting the idea out there.

Interesting enough for some of the MMA-only guys over here, that right when the "greasing scandal" broke here in MMA, a real glove loading scandal was found and proven with a prominent boxer named Antonio Margarito. Now GSP this is the type of overlap that can really allow some MMA guys to learn some new things bc alot of methods (including cheating methods) are applicable to MMA discussion as well. Plus with guys like Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovsky, and maybe one day A. Silva making, forays into boxing there may be even some overlap there as well.

We'll see. Like I said, it may be unworkable in the end.

BTW, being a fan of women's MMA (and women's sports in general) that I am I would feel amiss in not announcing an update to the Gina Carano sweepstakes. It seems that although Gina has had talks with the DW and Zuffa, since she is not truly a free agent she doesn't see any real way to fight her existing Strikeforce contract without a protracted legal battle. She seems to be using Zuffa simply to work up her Strikeforce contract. But when she finally does sign and meet with the female version of "Cyborg" it will be for the female 145 lb Strikeforce title. WAMMA also had Gina and Santos listed at #1 & 2 on thier women's ranking but Strikeforce primo Scott Coker is wary of working with the organization. Let's hope the girls can make weight bc it would seriously be a black eye for other women like Roxanne Modafferi, Megumi Fugi, Yuka Tsuji, Marloes Coenen (who is a legit 145-er, SF bring this girl in), and Erin Toughhill (also a legit 145 and above) who consitently make weight. Also the other girls that I listed can be brought in to flesh out the women's division, they're cheaper and they'll get all the little girls taking judo and karate out the the arenas much like the girls playing soccer are now watching WPS. Strikeforce can corner the women's division in MMA, get Fuji in at 125, LaRosa and co at 135 and some of the girls that I mentioned above at 145 and you've got three legit women's divisions. That's all.

Oh and one last thing for GSP, I just now found out that 'Deadliest Warrior' is a Spike show. Spike is pratically "pwned" by Zuffa, so I'd take anything they say about Chuck with a grain of salt.

Much as I respect Chuck for his defense of A. Silva, I put him in the same book as ODLH (more boxing talk, see we work it in); great name recognition for selling big bouts, but never really beat the more skilled strikers of his generation. ODLH never could beat Shane Moseley (twice) and lost to Trinidad and B Hop. Chuck never could beat Rampage (twice) and lost to Shogun and Evans. ODLH's only big win came over an over-the-hill Julio Cesar Chavez. Chuck's only real win over a legit striker was an over-the-hill Wandy (however it can be said that Chuck was over-the-hill as well at the time).

Also congenital amputee Kyle Maynard is entering amateur MMA this week at 135. Always wondered about his ambition to do MMA and wondered how the hell he'd ever get sanctioned and now have my answer. Good for him, doing what he wants. Without sports and the ability to compete at your level life is only half-fulfilled. He may lose but he's proof not to listen to the nay-sayers in life.

[EHK for Darwin]

Much as I respect Chuck for his defense of A. Silva, I put him in the same book as ODLH (more boxing talk, see we work it in); great name recognition for selling big bouts, but never really beat the more skilled strikers of his generation. ODLH never could beat Shane Moseley (twice) and lost to Trinidad and B Hop. Chuck never could beat Rampage (twice) and lost to Shogun and Evans. ODLH's only big win came over an over-the-hill Julio Cesar Chavez. Chuck's only real win over a legit striker was an over-the-hill Wandy (however it can be said that Chuck was over-the-hill as well at the time).

I wouldn't go that far. ODH did take out Pernell Whitaker, who was considered #1 P4P fighter in the world at the time. He knocked out Vargas who was a very feared puncher and elite fighter, though looking back Vargas's power probably slipped due to the weight jump. He defeated an undefeated Ike Quartey. Both of his decisions with Mosely were extremely close. And its been revealed that both Vargas and Mosely were on steroids for their ODH fights.

With the less then desirable manner in which boxing matches are made, ODH still manages to have a quite impressive list of names on his resume, even if alot of the later ones are losses. But I'd agree that taking out Hopkins, Trinidad, and/or Mosely would've helped his legacy ALOT. I think a big part of his problem is his rather rapid decline from elite fighter status.

He didn't do shit past 30. He got a gift decision against Felix Sturm. Took out everyone's favorite punching bag in Mayorga. (no great feat, the guy exists to talk shit, hype fights, and lose his ass. He only has one significant victory to his name) And a tuneup against Steve Forbes of Contender fame, who clearly isn't an elite fighter and even then ODH didn't look good. When his competition was stepped up, he got his ass knocked out by a much older B-Hop, got outpointed by Floyd Mayweather, and destroyed by undersized Manny Pac.

Considering 40ish (or almost) fighters like B-hop, Mosely, Glen Johnson and others who are still fighting at an elite level, it doesn't reflect all that well on ODH. But not everyone gets to be an age-defying physical freak I guess. Most fighters are shot long before their mid-30's. All around though, I can definitely see the Chuck comparisons. While he does have some big name victories, his hype and popularity certainly exceeds his resume.

Glad to hear that UFC (or I guess I should say Dana White) is softening on the women fighters thing. Sure there's only one legit star there and only one name opponent, but they both put on good, entertaining fights and its something to potentially build around. The constant weight problems are starting to piss me off though. Cyborg's last fight was against an incredibly undersized Japanese (I think) girl who likely moved up way beyond her natural weight class and Cyborg still missed weight by about 5 pounds. It was an embarrassing fight really and Cyborg tossed her around like a rag doll. The lack of professionalism amongst the female fighters (Gina is a multiple offender, Cyborg once) on the weight thing is really starting to piss me off. You either take the sport seriously or you don't. If you don't, stop wasting peoples time.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I wouldn't go that far. ODH did take out Pernell Whitaker, who was considered #1 P4P fighter in the world at the time. He knocked out Vargas who was a very feared puncher and elite fighter, though looking back Vargas's power probably slipped due to the weight jump. He defeated an undefeated Ike Quartey. Both of his decisions with Mosely were extremely close. And its been revealed that both Vargas and Mosely were on steroids for their ODH fights.

Forgot about the Quartey (which I watched live) fight and the Sweet Pea fights. Vargas is probably a more apt comparison to Tito Ortiz (who wasn't a striker at all but has a mouth like Vargas and even accompanied Vargas to the ring once) who has a mouth like Vargas. And you're right, he fought competitively with Mosely but only the second fight did I see him having a chance to win on the cards. I thought the first fight was rather decisive myself. Plus the Trinidad fight was close too, ODLH was just too dumb to realize that you have to fight all twelve rounds.

Gotta agree on the Carano/ Cyborg weight stuff. While I don't buy that it should make people take less interest in their skills, which are real, these women represent and are the face of women's MMA. What they do wrong reflects not only on themselves but the many women who compete and don't f-up thier weigh-ins. They put a black-eye on female fighters at all levels who are doing their damn thang.

[GSP]

A while back MMAjunkie's resident medical expert did an article on women's weight making issues. He made the case that some slack has to be given as women have a tougher time generally making weight and even when they are on track a dreaded 'women's issue' can raise its head and totally sideline any chance of making the weight no matter what the fighter does.

Glove loading? Ouch! I can only imagine what that can lead to. Was it like the Simpson's boxing episode where Moe flashes back to his boxing days when he used to rely on his patented 'stinger' which was a glove concealing a length of barbed wire?

[Ken Stone]

A while back MMAjunkie's resident medical expert did an article on women's weight making issues. He made the case that some slack has to be given as women have a tougher time generally making weight and even when they are on track a dreaded 'women's issue' can raise its head and totally sideline any chance of making the weight no matter what the fighter does.

I read that article also but disagreed with it. Any fighter, male or female, who has problems making a certain weight should change weight classes. If you know that 1 week out of 4 you can't make 145, then fight at 155.

[EHK for Darwin]

I read that article also but disagreed with it. Any fighter, male or female, who has problems making a certain weight should change weight classes. If you know that 1 week out of 4 you can't make 145, then fight at 155.

While I generally agree, you think there's a problem finding other female fighters at those higher weight classes? I have no idea how deep the women's ranks are in the sport, but that could be a reason all these fights seem to take place at or near 145.

[Ser Barry]

I skimmed all that boxing talk and I vaguely follow boxing. I think they should remain seperate.

Surely regulated use of a sink plunger would sort out all the 'time of the month' issues?

[Horus Ex Machina]

While I generally agree, you think there's a problem finding other female fighters at those higher weight classes? I have no idea how deep the women's ranks are in the sport, but that could be a reason all these fights seem to take place at or near 145.

Erin Toughill definitely could fight at 155 with them. Not too many other names off the top of my head but that's one.

Glove loading? Ouch! I can only imagine what that can lead to. Was it like the Simpson's boxing episode where Moe flashes back to his boxing days when he used to rely on his patented 'stinger' which was a glove concealing a length of barbed wire?

Lol, never saw that ep. No Margo simply used a wet quick-drying form of plaster concealed within his hand wraps. By the fourth round they would have been hard as rocks enabling him to get the KO. It was discovered shortly before the fight by his opponent, Shane Mosely's trainer and the fight went on as scheduled. But Margo's since been suspended by CSAC for one years time and all of the US commissions intend to honor it. It's possible that he used similar tactics in a few of his earlier bouts most notably the Miguel Cotto fight. We're seeing similar things in MMA since the same inept commissions regulate both sports.

[GSP]

Quick drying plaster knuckles in a boxing match? Wow, see I am learning things.

"Surely regulated use of a sink plunger would sort out all the 'time of the month' issues?"

Ummm, do I even want this one explained to me?

[Ser Barry]

Probably not.

[EHK for Darwin]

Quick drying plaster knuckles in a boxing match? Wow, see I am learning things.

"Surely regulated use of a sink plunger would sort out all the 'time of the month' issues?"

Ummm, do I even want this one explained to me?

Saw an article on this a while ago. Before my boxing fandom, but a young, up and coming prospect named Billy Collins some years back faced an opponent who used plaster of paris under his gloves. Lost a unanimous decision, got permanently blurred vision from the fight, and other defects that kept him from ever fighting again. It was revealed later that his opponent did use Plaster of paris on his gloves. Similar to the same sort of shit that Margarritto did. Anyway, the kid's career stopped, his life shortly self destructed, and he was dead a few years later. So I take VERY seriously any accusations of this sort that I see. As far as I'm concerned, Margs brought a deadly weapon into the ring and should ABSOLUTELY be banned for life.

More on the Collins kid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Collins_(boxer)

[Ser Barry]

Feck off with the boxing :tantrum:

[Oorag]

Yeah, there's already a boxing thread.

Apparently a man with stumps for arms and legs competed in an amateur mma match, losing by decision. I can't understand how that's physically possible.

[benderschweiz]

Pretty sure the guy was a wrestler in college. It's interesting to think about how a good a grappler like that could be if he had arms w/ no legs. Maia with no legs could fight at 135 and he wouldn't have to worry about kicks. :cool:

[GSP]

The man reputedly has the strength of a 205er but can make weight at 135 because of the lack of limbs. Everyone was bitching that it was a modified rules fight because the guy couldn't kick or knee him to the head, but that was only because he's technically always a downed opponent. Evidently, due to humidity reasons, Maynard's (I believe was the fighter's name) corner could not get his gloves to stay on his arms so he wasn't able to strike at all. It was reputedly three rounds of a guy getting on his bike to avoid the take down and peppering Maynard with the jab. I'm not sure I would want to watch that.

[Ken Stone]

The man reputedly has the strength of a 205er but can make weight at 135 because of the lack of limbs. Everyone was bitching that it was a modified rules fight because the guy couldn't kick or knee him to the head, but that was only because he's technically always a downed opponent. Evidently, due to humidity reasons, Maynard's (I believe was the fighter's name) corner could not get his gloves to stay on his arms so he wasn't able to strike at all. It was reputedly three rounds of a guy getting on his bike to avoid the take down and peppering Maynard with the jab. I'm not sure I would want to watch that.

How the hell can you grapple without hands? I see how he would be tough to take down in a wrestling match, since most of your wrestling attacks are single and double leg take downs, but how does he grab someone?

[GSP]

I have no idea how, but allegedly, Maynard can wrestle extremely well, grapple and even strike when his gloves will stay on. From a sanctioning perspective I'd be most interested in how he can defend strikes. From the way people described him eating that jab for three rounds, maybe he can't.

[Analu]

Watch some of his matches on youtube. He has an extremely strong upper body and uses his stumps for leverage.

I admire his spirit and if MMA is his dream, I guess why not go for it. But personally, it just seems like an all-around bad idea. As mentioned above, the rules have to be modified for his fights. And what opponent is going to go full bore and try to knock out someone with no limbs? They'd get booed out of the arena. No, they'll do exactly what his opponent did last night: half-ass it and pepper him with jabs to get the W without inflicting any real damage. Just seems like the negatives far outweigh the positives.

As for merging the MMA and boxing threads, I have no problem with it myself, as boxing was my first love and though I don't follow it as closely now, I still love it. But it seems the general consensus is to leave the two separate.

[Ken Stone]

I would prefer to keep the boxing and MMA threads separate, because I don't follow boxing. The problem I would run into if they were combined is when people discussed both MMA and boxing in the same post, because I would skip the post if it started off about boxing and might miss some MMA discussion. If everyone vowed to not cross pollinate by discussing both boxing and MMA in the same post then that would probably be fine also.

[Stego]

I would prefer to keep boxing and MMA separate. I love one, and think badly of the other.