An honest assessment of WOT?

[fionwe1987]

kuenjato:

I'd rate the series as follows:

1)TSR

2)tfOh-LoC tie

3)tPoD-KoD tie

4)aCoS

5)CoT

6)EotW

7)WH-tDR tie

8)tGH

EotW is just higher up because it started it all. While tGH was interesting enough to keep me going, it took a re-read for me to find out the holes in the plot.

Wert:

In wotmania, at least, you'll find several posters who agree that CoT is definitely better than some of RJ's earlier work. And they number more than ten...

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Wert:

In wotmania, at least, you'll find several posters who agree that CoT is definitely better than some of RJ's earlier work. And they number more than ten...

I don't think he meant it literally...more like a way of saying that those who favor CoT are few compared to those who don't. Various customer reveiws reflect it.

And why rate EoTW so low? I rather enjoyed it...

[Shryke]

Actually, Wert is a freak of nature with more fingers then you'd like to know, so his use of the expression should be taken with a grain of salt.

[irriadin]

My ranking goes like this:

1. The Shadow Rising & The Fires of Heaven

3. Lord of Chaos

4. A Crown of Swords

5. Knife of Dreams

6. The Dragon Reborn

7. The Great Hunt

8. The Eye of the World

9. Winter's Heart

10. Path of Daggers

11. Crossroads of Twilight

The book I have come to appreciate the most out of rereads is probably a Crown of Swords; it really doesn't deserve to be known as the start of the "bad" books.

SPOILER: Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight - Minor spoilers

If not for the amazing conclusion, Winter's Heart would be quite average. PoD is... well. Bickering between the Kin / Knitting Circle, Windfinders/Sea Folk and the Aes Sedai does not make for especially happy reading. Particularly when it makes up the first 100 pages or so. A so-so climax at the end of the book doesn't really help too much.

Then there's everybody's favorite whipping-boy, Crossroads of Twilight. While I enjoy foreshadowing and such as much as the next person (probably more, actually), I did kinda expect SOME stuff to happen. Reading Elayne's storyline is about as engaging as reading one of Elizabeth Haydon's Rhapsody books. And trust me, that's not a flattering comparison.

[kuenjato]

PoD gets ragged on because:

1) it was the first of the "shorter" books in the series

2) it was the around the start of the longish waits between books period

3) it didn't have Mat

But it's really not that bad. I think more interesting stuff happens in it then in WH, it just lacks WH's big whammy conclusion.

On reread, my opinion of the book increased alot.

It's also one of the least "self-contained" of the novels. Up to that point RJ had managed to keep an overall structure to each novel. Beginning, - middle - bang-up ending. This genre guideline started to unravel around book 6-7, and basically fell apart with PoD, which felt like a brief excursion to Randland with lots of focus on squabbling women (the first 150 pages and anywhere Aes Sedai figured in) and little concern with the major plotlines. Not addressing Mat's condition for PoD was annoying, especially when you factor in that the cliffhanger basically hung there for the five years or so between ACoS and WH. Alas, RJ felt compelled to make the Daughter of the Nine Moons as "charming" as all his other female characters, so by the time we were re-introduced to Mat it was just to witness him slowly neutered by another smug highblood harpy. Bah.

I suppose PoD isn't as much the shit-sandwhich experience now it was in 1998 , with books 9-11 to continue the "progression" of the overall series, but for someone who had waited years for RJ to finally start pulling it together, the novel if anything exposed the gaping holes and gradual bloat of the previous three novels and showed the RJ had no intention of tightening the plot and getting on with Randland apocalypse. There was some action, sure, but nothing was resolved and nothing seemed any closer to resolution. Before PoD, it could reasonably be assumed that WoT might be ten novels--indeed, the chaotic last third of book 7 indicated a growing overall tension. After PoD, it seemed extremely unlikely the series would end as long as the fanboy cash kept coming in.

The world-book came out right before (?) PoD, and the combination of both started the backlash. Before PoD, there was some criticism of WoT's bloat but the opinion around the web was generally positive. After, well, the hate really started flowing for those who percieved RJ as one who had milked this beast 'till the udder ran dry. Some may claim that the latter books are "better" (thus my wondering as to their rankings), but the general consensus isn't anywhere near as charitable - CoT recieving the most of the scorn, and rightly so: it's RJ giving the readers a dirty sanchez after a three-book anal rape of what WoT might have been, with some discipline and editoral oversight.

All IMO.

EDIT: thanks for the rankings.

[Sis Who Swears]

Oh god... Elayne. I forgot how much I despised her endless whining/ save Andor/ hormonal mood swing bullshit. :bang:

So, for what it's worth, my top five scenes from the series. In no particular order.

I agree with all of these, they are what make the books for me.

SPOILER:

Especially

Rand cleansing Saidin, that whole battle scene with the Forsaken was awesome. I also really like the Aiel vs. Aiel/Perrin rescuing Faile thing, but maybe that's cuz I got soooo sick of how long that got dragged out.

[fionwe1987]

It's also one of the least "self-contained" of the novels. Up to that point RJ had managed to keep an overall structure to each novel. Beginning, - middle - bang-up ending. This genre guideline started to unravel around book 6-7, and basically fell apart with PoD, which felt like a brief excursion to Randland with lots of focus on squabbling women (the first 150 pages and anywhere Aes Sedai figured in) and little concern with the major plotlines. Not addressing Mat's condition for PoD was annoying, especially when you factor in that the cliffhanger basically hung there for the five years or so between ACoS and WH. Alas, RJ felt compelled to make the Daughter of the Nine Moons as "charming" as all his other female characters, so by the time we were re-introduced to Mat it was just to witness him slowly neutered by another smug highblood harpy. Bah.

Well opinions differ, but you know, if you go beyond your mantra that all Aes Sedai are boring, the politics and bickering in the Rebel Aes Sedai camp is actually really well done, showing quite well the moral bankruptcy of the Aes Sedai. And there's definite forward movement in the form of Egwene seizing some control, finally. As any quick synopsis of the outline of the The Gathering Storm proves, as does the realization that Egwene is not a "side" character by any stretch, this is an extremely important storyline, and whatever end it is going to reach, much of the set up for it was done in this book.

And what is wrong with Toun's characterization? How is a woman who lived in relative isolation, repeatedly fending off assassination attempts and thinks that she is heir to a nearly divine throne supposed to behave? We're talking about the highest ranking Seanchan we're seeing. Is she supposed to be a charming witty princess who luuurves her man and will do anything for him?

I suppose PoD isn't as much the shit-sandwhich experience now it was in 1998 , with books 9-11 to continue the "progression" of the overall series, but for someone who had waited years for RJ to finally start pulling it together, the novel if anything exposed the gaping holes and gradual bloat of the previous three novels and showed the RJ had no intention of tightening the plot and getting on with Randland apocalypse. There was some action, sure, but nothing was resolved and nothing seemed any closer to resolution. Before PoD, it could reasonably be assumed that WoT might be ten novels--indeed, the chaotic last third of book 7 indicated a growing overall tension. After PoD, it seemed extremely unlikely the series would end as long as the fanboy cash kept coming in.

So RJ was a cash-hound was he? I wonder how he managed to keep a coherent story going which continued to adhere to foreshadowing and still shows signs of a clear overall structure?

The world-book came out right before (?) PoD, and the combination of both started the backlash. Before PoD, there was some criticism of WoT's bloat but the opinion around the web was generally positive. After, well, the hate really started flowing for those who percieved RJ as one who had milked this beast 'till the udder ran dry. Some may claim that the latter books are "better" (thus my wondering as to their rankings), but the general consensus isn't anywhere near as charitable - CoT recieving the most of the scorn, and rightly so: it's RJ giving the readers a dirty sanchez after a three-book anal rape of what WoT might have been, with some discipline and editoral oversight.

So, it was external factors (like time between books) and your opinion of the author that drive your appreciation of these books? I rest my case.

[irriadin]

I can only imagine that reading the series from day 1 will give you a different perspective from someone like me, who started reading WoT mid 2001. Because while I'll admit that PoD and CoT are surely not the best books ever, I don't think they deserve some of the extremely negative criticisms leveled towards them. This includes primarily the "RJ is a sellout" mentality.

I honestly don't think RJ considered "milking" WoT. I mean, even when he finished WoT, he planned on doing that Infinity of Heaven series. While it wouldn't be WoT, it would surely still sell like mad due to the name "Robert Jordan."

[kuenjato]

Well opinions differ, but you know, if you go beyond your mantra that all Aes Sedai are boring, the politics and bickering in the Rebel Aes Sedai camp is actually really well done, showing quite well the moral bankruptcy of the Aes Sedai. And there's definite forward movement in the form of Egwene seizing some control, finally. As any quick synopsis of the outline of the The Gathering Storm proves, as does the realization that Egwene is not a "side" character by any stretch, this is an extremely important storyline, and whatever end it is going to reach, much of the set up for it was done in this book.

And what is wrong with Toun's characterization? How is a woman who lived in relative isolation, repeatedly fending off assassination attempts and thinks that she is heir to a nearly divine throne supposed to behave? We're talking about the highest ranking Seanchan we're seeing. Is she supposed to be a charming witty princess who luuurves her man and will do anything for him?

So RJ was a cash-hound was he? I wonder how he managed to keep a coherent story going which continued to adhere to foreshadowing and still shows signs of a clear overall structure?

So, it was external factors (like time between books) and your opinion of the author that drive your appreciation of these books? I rest my case.

to put it briefly: we knew the Aes Sedai were morally banktrupt from book one. RJ was spinning his wheels. Tuon might have been sympathetic if she were actually somewhat distinguishable from the host of harpies already covered; RJ's strange treatment of women remained infuriatingly juvenile throughout, from book one to book eleven. Egwene is a major character, and an extremely boring one when what could have been covered in one book is drawn out to three, four. That goes for all of the major characters.

So RJ was a cash-hound was he? I wonder how he managed to keep a coherent story going which continued to adhere to foreshadowing and still shows signs of a clear overall structure?

:rolleyes:

As for selling out, he approved an expensive World book that was utter shit by any account except for the blind and delusional. TSR was publishing extensive and well-illustrated guides at that time; the same couldn't extend to the biggest-selling author of the genre? More importantly: He told two book's worth of story in 4 (or 5 - KoD could have been half a book, easily; a good third of LoC could have been chopped out). I don't think he was a conscious sell-out, but hey, George Lucas loved Jar Jar Binks and there were plenty of apologists for TPM when it came out. "Sell out" is subjective and I don't deny it. Perhaps RJ didn't consciously sell out - but his books plunged into the shitter and we recieved even shittier add-ons (the game, the world book, New Spring, a story utterly redundant and pointless). Some of that was out of his control, apparently (the game), the rest was not.

As for my opinion of RJ: a MOR author with far greater storytelling instincts than actual ability -- something I recognized with EotW in 1991, though I still enjoyed the shit of it and the following books -- and an author who subsequently spiralled out of control in the last decade of his career and never recovered. I've never thought of him as a "good" writer: his prose is adequate, I suppose, but often clumsy. His style eventually succumbed to diarreah of the pen right around the time he really should have tightened it up. Everyone who has met him says he was generous and good-natured as a whole. That's nice -- still doesn't make the last 2500-3000 pages of WoT any better.

[fionwe1987]

to put it briefly: we knew the Aes Sedai were morally banktrupt from book one. RJ was spinning his wheels. Tuon might have been sympathetic if she were actually somewhat distinguishable from the host of harpies already covered; RJ's strange treatment of women remained infuriatingly juvenile throughout, from book one to book eleven. Egwene is a major character, and an extremely boring one when what could have been covered in one book is drawn out to three, four. That goes for all of the major characters.

Aes Sedai were morally bankrupt from book one? On the basis of reading which character? Moiraine? Or that one chapter with Elaida in it?

Till the split in the Tower, the only Aes Sedai we see closely are Moiraine, Siuan, Verin and Elaida. While the last is certainly Cersei's match in megalomania and idocy, exactly what moral bankruptcy do the other three embody?

And Tuon is nothing like other women in WoT. You easily lump them all as harpies, as if it were a given, but even if they were, Tuon is not being unseasonable or bitchy in any way. Here's a dangerous man she's supposed to marry, a man who kidnaps her and has dealings with the hated Aes Sedai and who makes it clear he will fight her empire to the death. What's she supposed to do? Coddle him?

If she's a harpy, can you explain in what way she is one?

And she's unsympathetic because she's meant to be. Just as the Aes Sedai are meant to be unsympathetic. After all, she is the highest embodiment of a worldview that is profoundly alien to the major characters we are used to. At the start at least, we will perforce see her enforcement of this worldview as abhorent and mindless.

As time passes by, Jordan shows us that there is as much reason and logic to this world-view as there is to the one espoused by the Rand-landers. Yet, like everyone else, Tuon has her blind spots and her idiosyncrasies. She's profoundly unsympathetic. I'd hate to be around her. Yet, she's a very good representation of a princess steeped in intrigues who does not lack knowledge or intelligence to rule, but having been cloistered all her life, has no real basis for her beleifs and thus her actions. There is a total absence of empathy with the people who surround her, yet there is generosity and kindness. Because learning can tell you to be kind to an old man or a child. Entitlement and a habit of getting what you want can foster a sense of generosity that makes you ensure great wealth for the owner of a circus.

But what the hell is supposed to prepare you to deal with a man you know you will marry, who is associated with your ancient enemies, acts goofy and carefree and then kidnaps you? Are you really surprised that the stubborn, irritating child, usually subdued by responsibility comes out to be seen here?

As for selling out, he approved an expensive World book that was utter shit by any account except for the blind and delusional. TSR was publishing extensive and well-illustrated guides at that time; the same couldn't extend to the biggest-selling author of the genre? More importantly: He told two book's worth of story in 4 (or 5 - KoD could have been half a book, easily; a good third of LoC could have been chopped out). I don't think he was a conscious sell-out, but hey, George Lucas loved Jar Jar Binks and there were plenty of apologists for TPM when it came out. "Sell out" is subjective and I don't deny it. Perhaps RJ didn't consciously sell out - but his books plunged into the shitter and we recieved even shittier add-ons (the game, the world book, New Spring, a story utterly redundant and pointless). Some of that was out of his control, apparently (the game), the rest was not.

About the world-book. Do you object to the art work (in which case I'm with you), or the actual content? Because the content was alright. Not the best, but quite decent.

As for there being more books than necessary. I agree. But was it because he loved his world too much? From the way he talked of Infinity of Heaven and wanting to move ahead, I don't think so.

Rather, the reason lies in the fact that he was stuck with some characters like Elayne and Perrin needing just a book to be ready for Tarmon Gaidon while others like Mat, Egwene and Rand needed a lot more time. Leaving one or the other out of these books would have had the same result as drawing out their story arcs did. Fans of character X would be pissed, others wouldn't mind. He seems to have tried out both ways, and ended up getting blamed for both.

Maybe he should have delayed tPoD by 5 years? :rolleyes:

As for my opinion of RJ: a MOR author with far greater storytelling instincts than actual ability -- something I recognized with EotW in 1991, though I still enjoyed the shit of it and the following books -- and an author who subsequently spiralled out of control in the last decade of his career and never recovered. I've never thought of him as a "good" writer: his prose is adequate, I suppose, but often clumsy. His style eventually succumbed to diarreah of the pen right around the time he really should have tightened it up. Everyone who has met him says he was generous and good-natured as a whole. That's nice -- still doesn't make the last 2500-3000 pages of WoT any better.

Why is his personality relevant? As long as he wasn't yeardish, I don't think that has anything to do with the quality of the books. I'm confused why you even brought this up.

[Poobah]

First let me say that I do rather like The Wheel of Time, this is important to note because I'm about to write some pretty damning things without taking any time to consider the good bits.

I'm gonna have to agree with everyone who is criticising the Aes Sedai / Kin / Seafolk interactions/dynamics. I'm fully aware that they are fully justified in-universe both in why they exist and why they act and interact they way they do but this doesn't mean that I have to enjoy reading it - oh look another group of over-entitled women acting like bitchy teenagers behind closed doors *sigh* just what I wanted to spend thousands of pages digging through to find plot relevant points. I can appreciate the wider point Jordan is making about miscommunication and how decadent the various channelling groups have become, especially the Aes Sedai, but it just comes off horribly reading various characters preforming teenage level backstabbing while thinking "hoho I'm so clever" all the while supposedly being the best educated people on the continent and having a lifespan measured in centuries rather than decades.

Is is believable - yes, I can see why and his in-universe explanation is fairly O-kay.

Do I do much more than skim through all the various bitchiness - nooo.

I would use a few quotations to illustrate my examples but by the time the majorleague bitching kicks in Jordan is using chapters rather than paragraphs to get anywhere.

EDIT : It's like... reading ASOIAF - Cersei Lannister the lady behind the famous "In the Game of Thrones you win or die" in AGoT has by FFC become a largely pittiful character that is practically a caricature of a Jordan Aes Sedai now that I think about it actually heh. She's a megalomaniac who's convinced of her own cunning while being completely small and useless and to be honest I really did not enjoy reading her chapters in exactly the same way I didn't enjoy reading the various bitching chapters in WoT and for the same reason that I don't enjoy watching various girly-teen TV dramas involving wealthy privelaged and of course highly bitchy beautiful American teenagers that my adult sister inexplicably still likes.

[Shryke]

Alas, RJ felt compelled to make the Daughter of the Nine Moons as "charming" as all his other female characters, so by the time we were re-introduced to Mat it was just to witness him slowly neutered by another smug highblood harpy.

Not to deflate your little rage balloon, but have you ever considered that this was the point?

[MaesterLuwin]

The strange thing about Robert Jordan is that he wrote what I (and many others) consider to be his best books in a very short amount of time. Books 1-7 came out in year intervals, pretty much. Books 4-6 are immense, and he still wrote them each within a year. Now, in interviews, RJ has clarified that he hated this and it drove him crazy. He wrote 12 hours a day for years on end in order to crank these books out. And they were great.

PoD was the first book that he started aiming for two year intervals between books, with more time to, you know, live life. Also, the books were to go through a better editing process (the first editions of WoT books 1-7 are notorious for typos). And, for whatever reason, RJ just isn't as strong a writer when he's not rushed. The more time and thought RJ put into the books, the worse they became. I don't know why this is, but considering that CoT has a whopping one-and-a-half stars on Amazon, and that most of the five-star reviews are jokes, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I don't think Robert Jordan is a sellout, but I think TOR was milking him for all he was worth. Selling the prologues for 5 bucks a pop is ridiculous. The big world book was abysmal. The reports that they're still planning on finding someone to write and publish the planned prequel novels make me a little queasy. RJ left behind notes for AMoL, but I don't know if he did for these prequels. Will the door ever close on Randland?

I think that, at the time when a normal editor would have told RJ to tighten his belt and hurry up with the story, TOR let him meander on and drag out the series, instead of keeping him in check. I don't think RJ deliberately slowed the pace to make himself a millionaire, but I think he writing naturally became more complicated and more-drawn out while his editors and publishing company did nothing to discourage this.

For what it's worth, I recall an interview at some point where even RJ admitted that the structure for CoT wasn't the best and didn't really work the way he had hoped. I'm looking for it now...

[Werthead]

PoD gets ragged on because:

1) it was the first of the "shorter" books in the series

2) it was the around the start of the longish waits between books period

3) it didn't have Mat

But it's really not that bad. I think more interesting stuff happens in it then in WH, it just lacks WH's big whammy conclusion.

On reread, my opinion of the book increased alot.

Actually, I rag on PoD because as well as those things it's also the one where chapters which do nothing to further plot progression begin. Even in the noted 'dry' period that makes up a lot of LoC, you can at least see what each chapter in the book was supposed to be contributing to the narrative, moreso in the busier ACoS. But PoD had a chapter near the start wherein:

The Kin, rebel Aes Sedai and Sea Folk debate on how to get to this Kin farm to perform the weather-restoring ritual. They then get on their horses and ride off. During the subsequent ride, which fills an entire chapter, they talk about the plot, bitch at one another, sniff, tug braids, fold-arms-under-breasts, and mutter darkly about men. At the end of the chapter they arrive at the farm.

That's it. Nothing else happens. The stuff they are talking about has already been covered, repeatedly, elsewhere. It's the first chapter in the series - but absolutely not the last - which contributes zero forward plot or character progression to the story. It is just pure and total filler with no purpose but to pad out the book. It stood out like a glaring thumb when I first read the book in 1998 and it's even more noticeably obvious whilst re-reading the whole series.

On the reread my opinion of ACoS and KoD both increased, CoT stayed the same but PoD and WH dropped quite a lot. WH gets forgiven a lot of its sins simply for having the Cleansing in it. Not even for the Cleansing being well-written (it's probably the most badly-written of Jordan's finales out of the whole series, and you can't say the same for CoT simply because it doesn't have one, it just stops), just because it's there and it's an important moment in the series (which then doesn't mean much because no-one believes it's happened).

[Shryke]

And, for whatever reason, RJ just isn't as strong a writer when he's not rushed. The more time and thought RJ put into the books, the worse they became.

Or, rather, he's simply less conventional. Following LoC, the story had expanded to the point where he couldn't rush through the writing anymore and had to be more careful.

[fionwe1987]

First let me say that I do rather like The Wheel of Time, this is important to note because I'm about to write some pretty damning things without taking any time to consider the good bits.

I'm gonna have to agree with everyone who is criticising the Aes Sedai / Kin / Seafolk interactions/dynamics. I'm fully aware that they are fully justified in-universe both in why they exist and why they act and interact they way they do but this doesn't mean that I have to enjoy reading it - oh look another group of over-entitled women acting like bitchy teenagers behind closed doors *sigh* just what I wanted to spend thousands of pages digging through to find plot relevant points. I can appreciate the wider point Jordan is making about miscommunication and how decadent the various channelling groups have become, especially the Aes Sedai, but it just comes off horribly reading various characters preforming teenage level backstabbing while thinking "hoho I'm so clever" all the while supposedly being the best educated people on the continent and having a lifespan measured in centuries rather than decades.

Is is believable - yes, I can see why and his in-universe explanation is fairly O-kay.

Do I do much more than skim through all the various bitchiness - nooo.

I would use a few quotations to illustrate my examples but by the time the majorleague bitching kicks in Jordan is using chapters rather than paragraphs to get anywhere.

EDIT : It's like... reading ASOIAF - Cersei Lannister the lady behind the famous "In the Game of Thrones you win or die" in AGoT has by FFC become a largely pittiful character that is practically a caricature of a Jordan Aes Sedai now that I think about it actually heh. She's a megalomaniac who's convinced of her own cunning while being completely small and useless and to be honest I really did not enjoy reading her chapters in exactly the same way I didn't enjoy reading the various bitching chapters in WoT and for the same reason that I don't enjoy watching various girly-teen TV dramas involving wealthy privelaged and of course highly bitchy beautiful American teenagers that my adult sister inexplicably still likes.

I can completely see that these chapters might piss off the reader, and anyone has the right to not want to read those chapters.

But as you said, RJ did put the effort of showing why such behavior is to be expected in certain groups in his world, given the altered realities. While you and Kuenjato might hate these characters/chapters, is it correct to say that it is horrible writing by the author, rather than a matter of personal preferences?

[Datepalm]

Not to deflate your little rage balloon, but have you ever considered that this was the point?

Maybe for Mat, but it dosen't excuse the uniformity and annoyingness of many of his female characters, and Tuon does fit that mold - despite being from a wildly different culture that should have made her different. There are some quite decent female characters scattered throughout WOT, but its usually because they're something other the Women Who Are Strong, shoring up their side of the bottomless ditch between the sexes. Berelaine, Brigitte, Siuan, Moiraine and Leane at times. Several of the forsaken. A few darkfriends. The seanchan woman from Tsr (Egeanin?). But definitely not the core female characters of Rands harem+Nynaeve+Egwene, and Tuon reads like they do.

[MaesterLuwin]

WH gets forgiven a lot of its sins simply for having the Cleansing in it. Not even for the Cleansing being well-written (it's probably the most badly-written of Jordan's finales out of the whole series, and you can't say the same for CoT simply because it doesn't have one, it just stops), just because it's there and it's an important moment in the series (which then doesn't mean much because no-one believes it's happened).

Yeah, I'll agree that the ending of WH is pretty poorly written. The POV changes every other paragraph. I can see what RJ was trying, but I don't think it worked so well. The event is cooler in my mind than on paper.

However, I do like WH for Mat's chapters, which I find quite enjoyable. I even like Rand's sojourn to Far Madding, even if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I really like PoD's Rand plot a lot, but I agree the rest is rather weak. CoT only has Rand in for two chapters, and he literally does nothing, which is another reason I really don't like that book. You know something's wrong with the structure of your series when you can't find anything for your protagonist do to for a whole book.

[Shryke]

Maybe for Mat, but it dosen't excuse the uniformity and annoyingness of many of his female characters, and Tuon does fit that mold - despite being from a wildly different culture that should have made her different. There are some quite decent female characters scattered throughout WOT, but its usually because they're something other the Women Who Are Strong, shoring up their side of the bottomless ditch between the sexes. Berelaine, Brigitte, Siuan, Moiraine and Leane at times. Several of the forsaken. A few darkfriends. The seanchan woman from Tsr (Egeanin?). But definitely not the core female characters of Rands harem+Nynaeve+Egwene, and Tuon reads like they do.

Tuon reads nothing like they do. She's not bitchy, she's simply playing with Matt. To her, he's a toy (hence the name).

[Shevchyk]

PoD gets ragged on because:

1) it was the first of the "shorter" books in the series

2) it was the around the start of the longish waits between books period

3) it didn't have Mat

But it's really not that bad. I think more interesting stuff happens in it then in WH, it just lacks WH's big whammy conclusion.

On reread, my opinion of the book increased alot.

*nods*

TPoD always struck me as quite a good book; breezy and fun, with an ominous ending.