An honest assessment of WOT?

[kuenjato]

Maybe for Mat, but it dosen't excuse the uniformity and annoyingness of many of his female characters, and Tuon does fit that mold - despite being from a wildly different culture that should have made her different. There are some quite decent female characters scattered throughout WOT, but its usually because they're something other the Women Who Are Strong, shoring up their side of the bottomless ditch between the sexes. Berelaine, Brigitte, Siuan, Moiraine and Leane at times. Several of the forsaken. A few darkfriends. The seanchan woman from Tsr (Egeanin?). But definitely not the core female characters of Rands harem+Nynaeve+Egwene, and Tuon reads like they do.

:agree:

I'm not going to bother to debate further, as both sides are fairly well entrenched. Have to say that the female characters listed above by Datepalm are examples of some of RJ's better creations.

[fionwe1987]

:agree:

I'm not going to bother to debate further, as both sides are fairly well entrenched. Have to say that the female characters listed above by Datepalm are examples of some of RJ's better creations.

I dunno about it being so very entrenched. I've seen far more negetavie reactions to WoT in this board than now. Maybe views have mellowed or those with extreme negetive views are just not interested in debating anymore?

But I stand by what I said. Toun is not bitchy. At all.

[Frank Stark]

Maybe views have mellowed or those with extreme negetive views are just not interested in debating anymore?

Or, if they're like me, they gave up reading it nigh on 10 years ago, and can't recall anything specific. Only that reading the later books was a real chore.

Although this brought back repressed memories:

That's it. Nothing else happens. The stuff they are talking about has already been covered, repeatedly, elsewhere.

[Kincsem]

I'm done with my second reread of ASOIAF, and I thought maybe I'd try this since its so well known. What can I expect? I know its not the end-all of epic fantasy, and I can take B - C rated books if they're fun.

If you are accustomed to reading writers who actually know how to write, Jordan's confusion about the placement of commas in the first book will prove distracting. He sprinkles commas about willy-nilly.

If you have ever put a saddle on a horse, the way he has people tuck long items under the girth while still mounted will make you crazy. Any girth that loose would result in the rider immediately hitting the ground, and any attempt to tuck anything under a girth would make for an annoyed, possibly injured, and possibly unrideable horse. Don't try this at home.

His female characters are all more or less witless. You KNOW they are going to do the stupid thing. Reading about them is like watching an accident happening in slow motion--you really want to stop it, and change the outcome, but you cannot.

Once Jordan finds a descriptive phrase, he never lets go of it. Never. There is one non-human character described as having "fingers-like-sausages" many, many times.

Jordan's peasant boys hit the road, and expect to each have their own room at the inns. I assume they had ESPN, Spike, CNN, etc. in each room as well.

Jordan's peasant kids are from an obscure backwater hole in the wall end of the world AND YET the language they speak is perfectly intelligible to everyone, including ruling class types. Remarkably, despite being farmers, the kids have no difficulty sliding right into the top of the social pyramid.

If none of this puts you off, you should enjoy Jordan.

[Werthead]

Jordan's peasant boys hit the road, and expect to each have their own room at the inns. I assume they had ESPN, Spike, CNN, etc. in each room as well.

I'm pretty sure this never happens. Characters end up sharing rooms, camping out in the wild in the traditional manner or sleeping in haylofts if the inn is full all the time.

[Shryke]

Jordan's world is also not all that comparable to our history due to vastly different starting points.

Literacy, for instance, is almost omnipresent.

[Gabriele]

If you are accustomed to reading writers who actually know how to write, Jordan's confusion about the placement of commas in the first book will prove distracting. He sprinkles commas about willy-nilly.

I thought he followed German rules there. :D

If you have ever put a saddle on a horse, the way he has people tuck long items under the girth while still mounted will make you crazy. Any girth that loose would result in the rider immediately hitting the ground, and any attempt to tuck anything under a girth would make for an annoyed, possibly injured, and possibly unrideable horse. Don't try this at home.

Well, most horses in Fantasy must be magical creatures that can gallop all day that with one measly handful of oats for breakfast. :)

You can't expect Fantasy authors to get it right if the makers of historical documentaries don't. ;) Though I would reccomend any writer to take a few riding lessons.

His female characters are all more or less witless. You KNOW they are going to do the stupid thing. Reading about them is like watching an accident happening in slow motion--you really want to stop it, and change the outcome, but you cannot.

I'm only halfway through TEotW and already hate the female characters. That doesn't bode well for reading more books in the series, because those silly girls play such a big role.

Jordan's peasant kids are from an obscure backwater hole in the wall end of the world AND YET the language they speak is perfectly intelligible to everyone, including ruling class types. Remarkably, despite being farmers, the kids have no difficulty sliding right into the top of the social pyramid.

But they're speshul. :D

[alguien]

I was always a big fan of:

SPOILER: WOT

Mat's first battle versus the Gholem

QFT.

"You can't bloody have her."

ETA: I agree with the sentiment that Crown of Swords is actually better upon re-read.

SPOILER: Matt & Sea Folk

The part where Matt faces down the Sea Folk is awesome. "You listen to me, you bilge stone. ... Nynaeve and Elayne need you, or I'd leave you for the gholam to crack your bones and the Black Ajah to pick over what's left. Well, as far as you're concerned, I'm the Master of the Blades, and my blades are bare."

[Kincsem]

I'm pretty sure this never happens. Characters end up sharing rooms, camping out in the wild in the traditional manner or sleeping in haylofts if the inn is full all the time.

It is their expectation of individual rooms that is startling. Were they planning on putting it all on their Visa cards?

The chimney is a relatively recent innovation, as is the hallway; modern notions of privacy came about only in the last few hundred years. People used to all sleep together by the fire, huddled together for warmth. Even colonial American inns frequently had an attic full of bunk beds for the guests.

Jordan's peasant kids read like American teens in costume.

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm only halfway through TEotW and already hate the female characters. That doesn't bode well for reading more books in the series, because those silly girls play such a big role.

I'm not halfway yet, but I don't know that I hate any of the female characters yet...

[Kincsem]

Well, most horses in Fantasy must be magical creatures that can gallop all day that with one measly handful of oats for breakfast. :)

You can't expect Fantasy authors to get it right if the makers of historical documentaries don't. ;) Though I would reccomend any writer to take a few riding lessons.

I'm only halfway through TEotW and already hate the female characters. That doesn't bode well for reading more books in the series, because those silly girls play such a big role.

But they're speshul. :D

Yes, riding lessons, stall cleaning lessons, care of tack lessons, training the beasts to lead lessons, understanding the psychology of equines lessons...

The female characters only become more irritating, because they do not learn.

Americans like to pretend there are no class distinctions in speech and dress, but of course, there are. I've known sharp, intelligent people from the hills of Tennessee, but no matter how educated they were (I knew an MD) they could never glide into some parts of society without being noticed. I've also known people who were instructed to lose their accents for the sake of future promotions. [if you listen, these people speak a little slower, but the smart ones tend to have very sharp, dry wit.]

[Werthead]

It is their expectation of individual rooms that is startling. Were they planning on putting it all on their Visa cards?

Where do they expect to have individual rooms? Even nobles like Elayne spend all their visits to inns bunking up with other people. Moiraine gets her own room, but she can afford it.

The chimney is a relatively recent innovation, as is the hallway; modern notions of privacy came about only in the last few hundred years. People used to all sleep together by the fire, huddled together for warmth. Even colonial American inns frequently had an attic full of bunk beds for the guests.

I see where your misunderstanding is coming from.

The WoT world is at the technological and sociological level of the 18th Century, not the Middle Ages. This is a common mistake because it's not handled very well. Jordan wants WoT world to be the 18th Century 'just without gunpowder', which is actually quite tricky to do (since gunpowder and the industrial processes inspired by it are quite important in other areas of 18th Century life). This is why a lot of places have good plumbing and chimneys.

[irriadin]

Americans like to pretend there are no class distinctions in speech and dress, but of course, there are. I've known sharp, intelligent people from the hills of Tennessee, but no matter how educated they were (I knew an MD) they could never glide into some parts of society without being noticed. I've also known people who were instructed to lose their accents for the sake of future promotions. [if you listen, these people speak a little slower, but the smart ones tend to have very sharp, dry wit.]

I know where you're coming from, trust me. But idiosyncrasies such as "rustic farmboy vernacular" tend to be more annoying to me than anything else. It may not be especially authentic but for readability it certainly makes things flow better. That being said, I don't think the Two Rivers is backwaters in terms of literacy; given that it was the seat of a great civilization in the past, it's not too surprising that most people have access to books and know how to read and write.

[Gabriele]

I'm not halfway yet, but I don't know that I hate any of the female characters yet...

I have a tendency to not like female characters, but in other books they either are just one in a large cast (Miriamele), or they are at least interesting (fe. Catelyn - the one female character in ASOIAF I could do without is Sansa). But in WoT there are all those Aes Sedai girl clubs (yeah, I read ahead on TOR.com, bad me) so that they're omnipresent.

Moiraine isn't too bad, but I didn't like Nyneave from the first moment, and Egwene doesn't exactly grow on me. ;) Min just boasts with her seeing stuff. The most fun is the blacksmith's wife and she's not on stage.

Though I admit I want to shake some sense into Matt, too. :)

[Poobah]

The chimney is a relatively recent innovation, as is the hallway; modern notions of privacy came about only in the last few hundred years. People used to all sleep together by the fire, huddled together for warmth. Even colonial American inns frequently had an attic full of bunk beds for the guests.

The world of the wheel of time isn't colonial America, it's approximately three millennia since an apocalypse, prior to which technology levels were far in advance of our own and the world existed in a civilised utopia, a claim to which I don't think any country in the world at this point can make. And yet we all have chimneys and hallways. I suspect therefore in an advanced and highly civilised utopia such things might exist and be remembered after the aforementioned apocalypse.

;)

[Shryke]

Exactly. The world of WOT is post-apocalyptic renaissance, but without gunpowder (since the Guild of Illuminators has been killing people to keep that a secret for ages now).

It is not our MIddle Ages and this comes out in many places, the most obvious being a very high rate of literacy and a society that, while having major sex segregation, is not musogonistic.

[Gabriele]

Well, if Jordan 'borrowed' a few ideas from LOTR that makes sense - the Shire is more 18th century rural England than anything Mediaeval.

[Kincsem]

Where do they expect to have individual rooms? Even nobles like Elayne spend all their visits to inns bunking up with other people. Moiraine gets her own room, but she can afford it.

I see where your misunderstanding is coming from.

The WoT world is at the technological and sociological level of the 18th Century, not the Middle Ages. This is a common mistake because it's not handled very well. Jordan wants WoT world to be the 18th Century 'just without gunpowder', which is actually quite tricky to do (since gunpowder and the industrial processes inspired by it are quite important in other areas of 18th Century life). This is why a lot of places have good plumbing and chimneys.

1700s era peasants in non-industrialized settings are much like their medieval counterparts. Remember, the French Revolution happened in 1789. Russia was even more backward--the Tsar set the serfs free because he thought Lincoln had such a great idea. Parts of Eastern Europe remained in a similar state for a long time. Jordan had plenty of models to work from. Good plumbing is not period. Versailles was built without including any indoor toilets. [The history of toilets makes a fascinating study. Cesspools and the like lingered on a long time.] Compare Paula Volsky's Illusion, which covers a 1700s era non-industrial society, convincingly so.

Somewhere in the first book. It's been a long time since I agonized through that reading.

[Kincsem]

I know where you're coming from, trust me. But idiosyncrasies such as "rustic farmboy vernacular" tend to be more annoying to me than anything else. It may not be especially authentic but for readability it certainly makes things flow better. That being said, I don't think the Two Rivers is backwaters in terms of literacy; given that it was the seat of a great civilization in the past, it's not too surprising that most people have access to books and know how to read and write.

American fantasy writers tend to write rustic vernacular as Cockney, which is strange because Cockney is urban.

The usual date given for the fall of Rome is 476 CE. 500 years later, Europe had splintered into dozens of political states, and even more languages. Italy alone became a patchwork of tiny states, and Rome itself shrank to a population in the lower 5 figures. Stir in a few invasions, and a plague or two to cut back on the number of literate people, and you quickly have societies that are not literate, even among the ruling classes.

During World War 2, the US discovered that the only US accent that everyone [including native born English speakers] could understand was the Texas drawl. 60 years of tv has homogenized the way we speak, but the opposite would happen in a non-industrial setting where people do not move around much.

Remember, Charlemagne could never quite learn writing, and he tried.

[Guy Kilmore]

With your criticisms of Jordan, Kincsem, I am hard pressed to think of any popular fantasy that would live up to these expectations, even Martin.