Darth Richard II Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 I just started River of Stars and it’s definitely not set in the two moons world or whatever it is called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyKC Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Are GGK's books historical. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, TheMightyKC said: Are GGK's books historical. ??? They are maybe alternate historical fantasies more than actually historical fantasies. By this, I mean that many of his novels -- certainly from The Lions of Al-Rassan and onward -- feature settings, characters, and events that are heavily based on real world historical figures and events. But they are not 1-to-1 the exact same, in large part because Kay wants the freedom to shape things and also because he's indicated he feels there's a moral quandry for him in writing "real" historical fiction, namely that he feels there's something dishonest in a writer pretending to be able to present his fictional creation as a historical figure just because they share a name; he has no special insight into what Justinian was really like, or El Cid, etc. Just to illustrate, The Lions of Al-Rassan features characters based on the Spanish national hero El Cid (Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar) and the Moorish general and poet Ibn 'Ammar in an era reminiscent of a highly compressed Reconquista. The Sarantine Mosaic duology features characters based on Emperor Justinian and Empress Theodora in an era reminiscent of a somewhat compressed history of Byzantium, including a historian character simialr to Procopius. But these characters don't share the names or exact details of their historical counterparts, and there are supernatural things going on in them. His most recent novel, A Brightness Long Ago, is set in a place reminiscent of Renaissance Italy, featuring characters inspired by the famous condottieri Federico de Montefeltro and Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta and their notorious feud, with events in the background that are reminscient of the fall of Constantinople, but all the names are different and the details and outcomes can be different and so on (and also there are supernatural things going on, although they are more thematically expressive than key to the story). Under Heaven and River of Stars are novels of the same "alternate historical" type, but they are based on events and figures of Chinese Imperial history. Under Heaven is a fantasized Tang dynasty and is inspired by the events of the An Shi rebellion, while River of Stars is a fantasized Song dynasty and features events inspired by the Jin-Song war. These have some overt supernatural things going on. The Fionavar Tapestry is pure portal fantasy. Tigana and A Song for Arbonne are very much inspired by Renaissance Italy and medieval France, but they are substantially more removed from historicity by lacking characters or events directly inspired by historical counterpats, and in the case of Tigana there's a substantial amount of magic. Edited April 30, 2020 by Ran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Ran said: They are maybe alternate historical fantasies more than actually historical fantasies. By this, I mean that many of his novels -- certainly from The Lions of Al-Rassan and onward -- feature settings, characters, and events that are heavily based on real world historical figures and events. But they are not 1-to-1 the exact same, in large part because Kay wants the freedom to shape things and also because he's indicated he feels there's a moral quandry for him in writing "real" historical fiction, namely that he feels there's something dishonest in a writer pretending to be able to present his fictional creation as a historical figure just because they share a name; he has no special insight into what Justinian was really like, or El Cid, etc. Just to illustrate, The Lions of Al-Rassan features characters based on the Spanish national hero El Cid (Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar) and the Moorish general and poet Ibn 'Ammar in an era reminiscent of a highly compressed Reconquista. The Sarantine Mosaic duology features characters based on Emperor Justinian and Empress Theodora in an era reminiscent of a somewhat compressed history of Byzantium, including a historian character simialr to Procopius. But these characters don't share the names or exact details of their historical counterparts, and there are supernatural things going on in them. His most recent novel, A Brightness Long Ago, is set in a place reminiscent of Renaissance Italy, featuring characters inspired by the famous condottieri Federico de Montefeltro and Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta and their notorious feud, with events in the background that are reminscient of the fall of Constantinople, but all the names are different and the details and outcomes can be different and so on (and also there are supernatural things going on, although they are more thematically expressive than key to the story). Under Heaven and River of Stars are novels of the same "alternate historical" type, but they are based on events and figures of Chinese Imperial history. Under Heaven is a fantasized Tang dynasty and is inspired by the events of the An Shi rebellion, while River of Stars is a fantasized Song dynasty and features events inspired by the Jin-Song war. These have some overt supernatural things going on. The Fionavar Tapestry is pure portal fantasy. Tigana and A Song for Arbonne are very much inspired by Renaissance Italy and medieval France, but they are substantially more removed from historicity by lacking characters or events directly inspired by historical counterpats, and in the case of Tigana there's a substantial amount of magic. It's one thing I enjoy in the novels, matching the fictional characters to their historical counterparts, although, often, it's not quite 1 to 1. Leontius is really a combination of Belisarius, Heraclius, Leo the Iconoclast, IMHO. Styliane doesn't really match Antonia, but is typical of quite a few female power brokers in the Eastern Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyKC Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Ran said: They are maybe alternate historical fantasies more than actually historical fantasies. By this, I mean that many of his novels -- certainly from The Lions of Al-Rassan and onward -- feature settings, characters, and events that are heavily based on real world historical figures and events. But they are not 1-to-1 the exact same, in large part because Kay wants the freedom to shape things and also because he's indicated he feels there's a moral quandry for him in writing "real" historical fiction, namely that he feels there's something dishonest in a writer pretending to be able to present his fictional creation as a historical figure just because they share a name; he has no special insight into what Justinian was really like, or El Cid, etc. Just to illustrate, The Lions of Al-Rassan features characters based on the Spanish national hero El Cid (Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar) and the Moorish general and poet Ibn 'Ammar in an era reminiscent of a highly compressed Reconquista. The Sarantine Mosaic duology features characters based on Emperor Justinian and Empress Theodora in an era reminiscent of a somewhat compressed history of Byzantium, including a historian character simialr to Procopius. But these characters don't share the names or exact details of their historical counterparts, and there are supernatural things going on in them. His most recent novel, A Brightness Long Ago, is set in a place reminiscent of Renaissance Italy, featuring characters inspired by the famous condottieri Federico de Montefeltro and Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta and their notorious feud, with events in the background that are reminscient of the fall of Constantinople, but all the names are different and the details and outcomes can be different and so on (and also there are supernatural things going on, although they are more thematically expressive than key to the story). Under Heaven and River of Stars are novels of the same "alternate historical" type, but they are based on events and figures of Chinese Imperial history. Under Heaven is a fantasized Tang dynasty and is inspired by the events of the An Shi rebellion, while River of Stars is a fantasized Song dynasty and features events inspired by the Jin-Song war. These have some overt supernatural things going on. The Fionavar Tapestry is pure portal fantasy. Tigana and A Song for Arbonne are very much inspired by Renaissance Italy and medieval France, but they are substantially more removed from historicity by lacking characters or events directly inspired by historical counterpats, and in the case of Tigana there's a substantial amount of magic. Thank you for the thorough answer! The books sound Beautiful and Informational. 1 hour ago, SeanF said: It's one thing I enjoy in the novels, matching the fictional characters to their historical counterparts, although, often, it's not quite 1 to 1. Leontius is really a combination of Belisarius, Heraclius, Leo the Iconoclast, IMHO. Styliane doesn't really match Antonia, but is typical of quite a few female power brokers in the Eastern Empire. This is so Encouraging! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TheMightyKC said: Thank you for the thorough answer! The books sound Beautiful and Informational. They are quite lovely. On further reflection, I think instead of "alternate historical" -- which, given the alternate history genre, implies that it's our history with some events changing -- a better term for the novels might be "pseudo-historical" 2 hours ago, SeanF said: Leontius is really a combination of Belisarius, Heraclius, Leo the Iconoclast, IMHO. Styliane doesn't really match Antonia, but is typical of quite a few female power brokers in the Eastern Empire. Yeah, he's more of an amalgam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 On 4/29/2020 at 12:57 PM, Jaxom 1974 said: Lions is amazing, but on reflection, knowing I have a few more to read, I think Last Light of the Sun competes with Lions for favorite... Oooooo Last light is my favorite of the ones I’ve read so far too. To be fair I have a thing for that era and area of history. was it me or was River of Stars super unhorny for a Kay book? i went to start Children of Earth and Sky just now and the book literally fell apart as I picked it up. Teach me to buy from second hand shops. To amazon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said: Oooooo Last light is my favorite of the ones I’ve read so far too. To be fair I have a thing for that era and area of history. was it me or was River of Stars super unhorny for a Kay book? i went to start Children of Earth and Sky just now and the book literally fell apart as I picked it up. Teach me to buy from second hand shops. To amazon! Neat timing - I'm reading The Lions of Al-Rassan at the moment (jumping as is my nature between several books at once, depending on the mood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) On 4/29/2020 at 10:57 AM, Jaxom 1974 said: Lions is amazing, but on reflection, knowing I have a few more to read, I think Last Light of the Sun competes with Lions for favorite... Nice to know I'm not alone [Darth included] because I really liked Last Light. And, if pressed, Song over Lions. Brightness might be my new favorite though, iono. I seem to prefer his one offs. Edited May 7, 2020 by JEORDHl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 I think Last Light is the weakest of his ahistoricals but, that's down to probably other people doing the same time period better, if not in terms of language in terms of scope and detail (Cornwell, for example, even if he's nowhere near as good as Kay at prose). The characters also weren't as strong as those in Lions, Heaven, Arbonne and Sarantine. It's still really good though, but I can't see it as his best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 100 or so pages into Earth and Sky and my word, this book is horny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 On 5/7/2020 at 5:48 PM, Werthead said: I think Last Light is the weakest of his ahistoricals but, that's down to probably other people doing the same time period better, if not in terms of language in terms of scope and detail (Cornwell, for example, even if he's nowhere near as good as Kay at prose). The characters also weren't as strong as those in Lions, Heaven, Arbonne and Sarantine. It's still really good though, but I can't see it as his best. I'm not certain I'd say it's his best either, but there is something about it that was just sooooo satisfying...at the end, me personally, I felt as fufilled as I did after Lions...there was that touchstone with it that I just didn't get after some of the others... Ran 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Tigana, while probably not his best work, had the most satisfying ending for me. Few of the newest ones still on the "to read" pile though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 It's funny to come to this thread because I've read the Fionavar tapestry and Tigana multiple times and never really gotten into the other novels. Is it the general consensus that Lions is the best of the rest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said: It's funny to come to this thread because I've read the Fionavar tapestry and Tigana multiple times and never really gotten into the other novels. Is it the general consensus that Lions is the best of the rest? I don't think there is any consensus on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said: I don't think there is any consensus on anything. Lol. And what does the child King/Sith Lord think? Edited May 25, 2020 by Gaston de Foix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said: Lol. And what does the child King/Sith Lord think? I've read everything but Ysabel and A Brightness Long Ago. They are all really good except Tigana, which sucks balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) In general, and searching online just to confirm this, I'd say the consensus has traditionally been that Lions is the best of the books. I feel like his later novels are in some ways more beautiful and nuanced than Lions, but OTOH they don't quite have characters that fire the imagination in the same way (and for the most part). There is, IMO, a fairly irresistible charm to it. If you enjoy Fionavar, you should try Ysabel if you haven't already. Edited May 25, 2020 by Ran Gaston de Foix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said: It's funny to come to this thread because I've read the Fionavar tapestry and Tigana multiple times and never really gotten into the other novels. Is it the general consensus that Lions is the best of the rest? As much as some consensus can be achieved, I think the feeling is that Lions of Al-Rassan is his best all-rounder for characterisation, prose, history, romance and action (as much as GGK does action); Sarantine Mosaic is the best from a more serious, literary perspective; Tigana is the best for being an approachable, more standard fantasy novel; and Under Heaven was his huge return to form after two books generally regarded as subpar in a row (Last Light of the Sun and Ysabel). But there's tons of people who'd disagree with that, so there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 6 hours ago, Werthead said: As much as some consensus can be achieved, I think the feeling is that Lions of Al-Rassan is his best all-rounder for characterisation, prose, history, romance and action (as much as GGK does action); Sarantine Mosaic is the best from a more serious, literary perspective; Tigana is the best for being an approachable, more standard fantasy novel; and Under Heaven was his huge return to form after two books generally regarded as subpar in a row (Last Light of the Sun and Ysabel). But there's tons of people who'd disagree with that, so there you go. Sarantine Mosaic would be my favourite, but then, I love reading about the Romans of the East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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