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Guy Gavriel Kay


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It's been probably more than 20 years that I read that book (I read Fionavar in 95 or 96 and Tigana probably a little afterwards but it could also have been before Fionavar, I don't remember) but at this time I didn't find that "nationalist" element disturbing at all. After all the "nationalists" yearning for their dissappeared land are the underdogs and perceived more as freedom fighters than as fascists. The idea of the magical erasion of a country as a perfect revenge might seem outlandish but as has been pointed out there are some real history parallels, especially Poland.

There is at least one erotic scene that I found, let's say implausible, ambiguous and somewhat creepy even then and that would probably freak out some people today.

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It's funny, before this discussion started (and it obviously had crossed my mind about Tigana that it resembles Poland a fair bit) I was gonna post that for all that I'll look forward to reading another Renneisance-era Italy novel from him I'd love to see Kay do something based on Poland- not just the partitions, there's absolutely shitloads of moments and people throughout Poland's history that correlate with exactly the kind of themes and characters Kay likes to write about. The Piast dynasty for example is full of it- from Boleslaw the Brave's early unification, Boleslaw III's ill-thought-out decision to try to keep things unified by, er, splitting Poland among his sons WELL DONE BOLESLAW, and Kazimierz the Great's re-establishment (and generally being exactly the sort of Justinian-like modernisation/legacy figure he likes).

And the political makeup of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth would be a great set-up for his trademark conversational back-and-forths and politicking, and then does lead to that theme of lost glory in the partitions.

Or, not directly Poland, but something centered around the 1683 Battle of Vienna would fit a lot of his Jaddites-against-Asharites fascination.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

It's funny, before this discussion started (and it obviously had crossed my mind about Tigana that it resembles Poland a fair bit) I was gonna post that for all that I'll look forward to reading another Renneisance-era Italy novel from him I'd love to see Kay do something based on Poland- not just the partitions, there's absolutely shitloads of moments and people throughout Poland's history that correlate with exactly the kind of themes and characters Kay likes to write about. The Piast dynasty for example is full of it- from Boleslaw the Brave's early unification, Boleslaw III's ill-thought-out decision to try to keep things unified by, er, splitting Poland among his sons WELL DONE BOLESLAW, and Kazimierz the Great's re-establishment (and generally being exactly the sort of Justinian-like modernisation/legacy figure he likes).

And the political makeup of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth would be a great set-up for his trademark conversational back-and-forths and politicking, and then does lead to that theme of lost glory in the partitions.

Or, not directly Poland, but something centered around the 1683 Battle of Vienna would fit a lot of his Jaddites-against-Asharites fascination.

Not to mention that Poland saved Vienna TWICE.  And that's how they were repaid.  But then the USA should be learning some really important lessons about how a 'democracy'  over time can turn into a corrupt morass that can't defend itself, when every individual only cares about getting titles and money from other countries.

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8 hours ago, Jo498 said:

There is at least one erotic scene that I found, let's say implausible, ambiguous and somewhat creepy even then and that would probably freak out some people today.

The biggest issue I have with that scene is that the instigator has absolutely no relevance to the rest of the plot. It's basically a lovingly described, extremely detailed, kink scene out of nowhere.

I know the (weird) thematic point Kay was making, but it doesn't fit the plot.

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11 hours ago, polishgenius said:

It's funny, before this discussion started (and it obviously had crossed my mind about Tigana that it resembles Poland a fair bit) I was gonna post that for all that I'll look forward to reading another Renneisance-era Italy novel from him I'd love to see Kay do something based on Poland

Huh, I have to admit this (obvious now) resemblance somehow escaped me when I read the book (liked it a lot, by the way), but I did think it would be great if Kay decided to move a bit north-east and picture something from rich history of Poland.

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4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The biggest issue I have with that scene is that the instigator has absolutely no relevance to the rest of the plot. It's basically a lovingly described, extremely detailed, kink scene out of nowhere.

I know the (weird) thematic point Kay was making, but it doesn't fit the plot.

Is it that scene in the closet? I don't remember the context at all but it is probably somewhat symptomatic that it is almost the only thing I remember from the book besides the rough outlines of the plot.

Still have not read anything besides Fionavar and Tigana. While I did not dislike them and they are better written than at least 90% of fantasy out there, my response to both was sufficiently mixed that I could never be bothered to get any of his other books. (Partly because I would have to buy them, if I could easily check them out at a local library, I'd probably have read them but I cannot get English books here in rural Germany, unless I buy them myself.)

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48 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Is it that scene in the closet? I don't remember the context at all but it is probably somewhat symptomatic that it is almost the only thing I remember from the book besides the rough outlines of the plot.

It's actually another scene later in the book. The closet scene is just... odd. It's doubly weird in that it later turns out that it's the girl's first sexual experience.

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Presumably the situation with Alienor is meant? Very much intended by Kay to be part of the thematics of the text.

As to Catriana, I can't help but think that there are women throughout history who've given up their virginity for what they saw as a cause, necessity, or duty rather than out of desire.

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Presumably the situation with Alienor is meant? Very much intended by Kay to be part of the thematics of the text.

As to Catriana, I can't help but think that there are women throughout history who've given up their virginity for what they saw as a cause, necessity, or duty rather than out of desire.

One real-life example that always makes me chuckle is that of the Nazi governor of White Russia, Kube, who had a Russian girlfriend who was secretly a partisan.  One night she put a nice hot water bottle in his bed, which turned out to be an anti-personnel mine.

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For me, the scenes with their family, before Catriona dedicates herself to the 'mission', were deeply moving.

Juxtaposing these with the family life scenes in Rovigo's home, with his variety of daughters, deepened all that.  One didn't see this sort of thing in fantasies before.

The scenery, the skies, are lovely.

Tigana is rich, though perhaps a little over complicated with not one, but two tyrants, etc.  But real politik is like that!  It was such a delight, reading a fantasy about adult matters, and relatively sophisticated too.

Edited by Zorral
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7 hours ago, Jo498 said:

 (Partly because I would have to buy them, if I could easily check them out at a local library, I'd probably have read them but I cannot get English books here in rural Germany, unless I buy them myself.)

Did you check if your library system now lends English ebooks over Overdrive? Because it made a huge difference for me in a somewhat similar situation.

I loved Tigana - it used to be my favorite Kay along with the Sarantium duology, but I haven't re-read it in a long time, so the suck fairy might have visited. As chance would have it, I have recently read his "River of Stars", which I liked, but not as much as "Under Heaven", and am now in the middle of "Children of Earth and Sky", which, for some reason proved a somewhat tough going for me. In general, I am disappointed by his obstinately cleaving to what I can only call secondary world variations on RL history... particularly since  even those changes that he makes don't affect things long-term. Maybe that's the reason for my present difficulties - because in my beloved Sarantine duology, history was primed to go in a different direction for Sarantium than for Byzantium, but now it was revealed that apparently it had all been all cosmetic?!

That's why, but to much greater degree, I also couldn't warm up to the much lauded and excellently written "The Dragon Waiting" by John M. Ford - I just couldn't stop thinking that in such changed circumstances none of those people would be around/in power and War of the Roses wouldn't be still happening. Some other war for succession, possibly, but then again maybe not even that, given how much of it was rooted in the previous events, which in this secondary world took a completely different track.

Still, as long as Kay keeps writing, I'll be reading his stuff... eventually.

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1 hour ago, Maia said:

Did you check if your library system now lends English ebooks over Overdrive? Because it made a huge difference for me in a somewhat similar situation.

I loved Tigana - it used to be my favorite Kay along with the Sarantium duology, but I haven't re-read it in a long time, so the suck fairy might have visited. As chance would have it, I have recently read his "River of Stars", which I liked, but not as much as "Under Heaven", and am now in the middle of "Children of Earth and Sky", which, for some reason proved a somewhat tough going for me. In general, I am disappointed by his obstinately cleaving to what I can only call secondary world variations on RL history... particularly since  even those changes that he makes don't affect things long-term. Maybe that's the reason for my present difficulties - because in my beloved Sarantine duology, history was primed to go in a different direction for Sarantium than for Byzantium, but now it was revealed that apparently it had all been all cosmetic?!

That's why, but to much greater degree, I also couldn't warm up to the much lauded and excellently written "The Dragon Waiting" by John M. Ford - I just couldn't stop thinking that in such changed circumstances none of those people would be around/in power and War of the Roses wouldn't be still happening. Some other war for succession, possibly, but then again maybe not even that, given how much of it was rooted in the previous events, which in this secondary world took a completely different track.

Still, as long as Kay keeps writing, I'll be reading his stuff... eventually.

I feel that way too.  This coincides with his poor and very simple 'fantasy' language substitutions for the RL languages.

Like you too, I will keep reading his books.  This hasn't been the case for a whole lot of other writers.

 

Edited by Zorral
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