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Ser Scot A Ellison

Judging Eye III

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I finished yesterday as well. The Cil-aujas scenes were very well done. It was pretty clearly a Moria analog. It was cool to see Bashrags in action.

I loved Cil-Aujas even if some of the details surrounding the seal were hard to follow. I also have no problem with it being so Moria-esque because it's so clearly a tribute in my mind. Maybe actually using the line "they are coming" goes too far but it was good stuff.

Scot - I'd love to hear you elaborate on how you think Cnaiur will reappear in this trilogy.

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trisk--

definitely homage and tribute.

i still think it's a gloss that runs the thought experiment: what if the fellowship of the ring brought along their own balrog to moria?--kinda like how the entire series runs the thought experiment: what if jesus accepted the offer of satan in the wilderness?

re: the WLW stuff, about which my incariol comment was simply irony, rather than serious contention--though, agreed, that there's no reason for WLW to be drawn from those who possess cult approval--kellhus hardly can be said to have possessed cult approval when he started out: any idea WTF WLW is supposed to be, besides, generally, a counter-kellhus drawn from the ranks of the commie-cult (which has a sickle, but no hammer, yet, sadly)?

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WLW is supposed to be, besides, generally, a counter-kellhus drawn from the ranks of the commie-cult (which has a sickle, but no hammer, yet, sadly)?

I think you've got the gist of it. Although I would add that the WLW is not just counter-Kellhus in terms of wanting to/being able to defeat him, but also counter-Kellhus in the ideological sense (Kellhus stands for the proposition that what comes before determines the after, whereas the WLW stands for the alternative: that events from an otherwise indeterminate future can alter the present state of things).

BTW, when mentioning candidates for the WLW, I forgot to mention Kelmomas. Someone raised that as a possibility in one of the older threads.

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But how could the WLW be anyone we've actually met? He was described as a young man at first and then becoming an older man with the Yatwer ritual. It can't be Kayutas - he's miles away. It can't be Kelmomas - he's 8.

I think it's kind of silly at this point; the WLW is either someone we've not had much contact with yet or it's someone that we are only going to know as the WLW.

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Triskele,

I simply think Cnaiur is too interesting a character with too much time invested for him to have died off stage. I think he's going to show up when the Ordeal gets to the far north.

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whereas the WLW stands for the alternative

that's well stated.

re: the WLW--

did i miss it in the first trilogy, or did this just get sprung in TJE? ditto, the yatwer cult, which has a nice entry in the TTT appendix, but otherwise wasn't subject to much development.

perhaps the latter dearth makes perfect sense insofar as it's a cult for poor people and the official scriptures aren't concerned with "tillers of soil," to the point where yatwerians have their own special scripture--this stuff wouldn't enter into PoN because the narrative therein focuses mostly on the rich and powerful types, or their hangers-on who aren't exactly religious. that's actually almost slick, though i still think that the cult should've received a bit more mention, if it's to provide the antithesis to kellhus' thesis in the second series, so that it appears properly set-up. (i really just want to say that the yatwerians failed to preserve their objections to error at trial, and now can't complain about those errors for the first time on appeal.)

maybe it's just crap writing, but it transforms the benjuka stuff into a nice metatextual commentary: RSB has moved his pieces around to such an extent that the rules of the narrative have changed significantly. (if i were the writer, i'd hang my hat on this one, instead of shrugging and saying, yeah, i fucked up.)

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at add a bit of philosophy to the current idea:

Kellhus=thesis

WLW=antithesis (the negation)

???=synthesis (the negation of the negation)

Is Akka going to find the ??? on his journey?

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locke--

we hit the writings of RSB with the three laws of the grand historical dialectic, as originated by marx and engels, and perfected by the great stalin:

a) the negation of the negation, as you note;

b) the transformation of quantity into quality; and

c) the interpenetration of opposites.

achamian's quest is likely related to the process, but the synthesis will have to be borne out by the interaction of AK and WLW, insofar as you've laid it out, just as the latter was produced inexorably by the historical conduct of the former.

we will need to see the incremental quantities that thereby accumulate shift our focus, like an optical illusion discovered, producing no mere quantitative adjustment in the disposition of forces of production in the novels' setting, but rather a qualitative metamorphosis--likely this happens when the interaction of AK and WLW transforms the aspect emperor into the no god incarnate (or some other new item that gets sprung on us, poor readers, in the third series).

along the way, the opposed categories, some of which pax identified upthread, would have to become mutually shared by the opposed terms--AK would have to become the WLW to some extent for a dialectical synthesis to occur--at which point AK is no longer AK while simultaneously remaining AK--it is the classic hegelian denial of the aristotelian principle of non-contradiction (and about which denial goodkind has spilled much febrile ink, all to my amusement and ridicule).

achamian's quest for ishual is the quest for the arche of the PoN/AE/NGI--he will find nothing but traces of the arche, mostly because RSB is a trained derridean and will enact neostructuralist theory in the novel--all that achamian will find are traces of the origin, absences that reflect the passage of the always already fleeting presence of the PoN/AE/NG. achamian will be unsatisfied with the result, but this will avail him nonetheless, precisely because traces of absent presences are all we have to go on, and they are typically sufficient.

long story short: my prediction = that achamian buggers kellhus with a chorae-condom, turning them both to salt, and, returning from obscurity, cnaiur, after snorting the salts as his final revenge, retires to boca raton and takes up the harmonica--and incariol marries esmenet in the epilogue as a reward for services rendered. and they all lived HAPPILY EVER AFTARS!!!

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Triskele,

I simply think Cnaiur is too interesting a character with too much time invested for him to have died off stage. I think he's going to show up when the Ordeal gets to the far north.

Did he die "off stage", though? I mean, from what I remember, he cut a swazond across his throat.

I'm of mixed feelings about a return. I love the character, but I almost feel that his salting Moenghus was the end of his arc.

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Did he die "off stage", though? I mean, from what I remember, he cut a swazond across his throat.

I'm of mixed feelings about a return. I love the character, but I almost feel that his salting Moenghus was the end of his arc.

Cnaiur is one of the best characters I've ever come across in literature. He is also dead.

Solo - Peach it my brotha!

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But how could the WLW be anyone we've actually met? He was described as a young man at first and then becoming an older man with the Yatwer ritual. It can't be Kayutas - he's miles away. It can't be Kelmomas - he's 8.

I think it's kind of silly at this point; the WLW is either someone we've not had much contact with yet or it's someone that we are only going to know as the WLW.

When I (and others) proposed Kel and Sorwa, we were speculating that the unknown man involved in Nannaferi's ritual might not actually be the WLW or might be a temporary WLW. Although this conflicts directly with the text*, there is, IMHO, a small chance that the WLW might be embodied in multiple people or the identity of the WLW might change over time. This makes Kellhus-haters like Sorwa and Kel possible candidates for the WLW.

But yeah, it's a pretty long bow to draw (but perhaps not to the point of being "silly"?). I concede that the young man in the ritual is by far the most likely to take on the role of WLW.

*quote:"and he sat before her, naked and immobile, on a beaten chair. A slave's chair. The White-Luck Warrior"

Triskele,

I simply think Cnaiur is too interesting a character with too much time invested for him to have died off stage. I think he's going to show up when the Ordeal gets to the far north.

I agree with kuenjato: was it really off-screen?

And he laughed, thinking of the final swazond he would cut into his throat. One last though too many...See! See!

My interpretation: Cnaiur's thought to cut his throat was the "last thought too many" and he actually cut his throat in the interval between "many" and "See!See!". Then he kneels over Moe for a while and Serwe the Skin-spy touches him while he is bleeding to death. Then "absolute darkness descends".

In any case, I agree that Cnaiur was an awesome character, and would have been difficult to kill off. But perhaps his spirit will live on through his son. I have high hopes for that one...

"Oh, yes, and one final thing. My elder brother, Moenghus...Beware him."

"Wh-why is that?"

"Because, he's quite mad"

@sologdin

maybe it's just crap writing, but it transforms the benjuka stuff into a nice metatextual commentary: RSB has moved his pieces around to such an extent that the rules of the narrative have changed significantly. (if i were the writer, i'd hang my hat on this one, instead of shrugging and saying, yeah, i fucked up.)

I love the benjuka analogy. But RSB has said in interview that this series has pretty much proceeded exactly as he had planned. So I think it unlikely that the Yatwerians/WLW were added as an afterthought. Maybe the focus of the PoN on the holy war prevented him from exploring mundane cults such as Yatwer.

ETA: sologdin, that last post you made was pretty hard core. I will probably die a happy man if I can ever handle words such as "trained derridean" and "classic hegelian denial" with such dexterity ;)

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/snip

@sologdin

ETA: sologdin, that last post you made was pretty hard core. I will probably die a happy man if I can ever handle words such as "trained derridean" and "classic hegelian denial" with such dexterity ;)

I thought it was just me. :huh: Sologdin's posts usually deflate my generally positive opinion of my word knowledge and make me run for the dictionary.

Re: WLW - have we completely eliminated Nanny from the possibilities? The rite described her as absorbing the man's strength/youth. It's possible she took over what she needed to move to the next level from "the" WLW. However, this scenario seems convoluted even to me. :P

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Re: WLW - have we completely eliminated Nanny from the possibilities? The rite described her as absorbing the man's strength/youth. It's possible she took over what she needed to move to the next level from "the" WLW. However, this scenario seems convoluted even to me. :P

I was thinking about this earlier. I suppose it is definitely not out of question, especially after the transformation that occurred during the ritual. And referring to Nannaferi as a "warrior" would fit Bakker's shift to a (marginally) less sexist world post-PoN. But I think this is a long shot (although perhaps no more crackpot than the other suggestions of Kel and Sorwa).

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This is my prediction for the end: Just at Kellhus' great moment of final triumph draws near...

BOOM!

... and like 5,000 huge ass Inchoroi mother ships touchdown. Or they just blow up the planet from space. Either way, that would be awesome.

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maybe it's just crap writing, but it transforms the benjuka stuff into a nice metatextual commentary: RSB has moved his pieces around to such an extent that the rules of the narrative have changed significantly. (if i were the writer, i'd hang my hat on this one, instead of shrugging and saying, yeah, i fucked up.)
This bothered my wife too, and pretty much ruined whatever slim hope there was to like the book. Come on...the gods were 'sleeping, but now they've woken up'? I had missed it when I read it, but now that I have I'm kind of annoyed too.

Also, it's amusing that the Great Ordeal only takes what it needs...which apparently includes the Umbilicus, a gigantic tent with stadium seating. No mere benches or dirt for Kellhus!

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Kalbear,

Where else can Kellhus assemble all the lords of the Ordeal to check and see if they've been replaced by skin spies while they travel to Golgotterath?

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Where else can Kellhus assemble all the lords of the Ordeal to check and see if they've been replaced by skin spies while they travel to Golgotterath?
How about a field? Maybe just some dirt?

Does he need to bring Thunderdome with him?

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How about a field? Maybe just some dirt?

Does he need to bring Thunderdome with him?

For the image it creates.

Showmanship is very important.

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Kalbear,

The Umbilucus is contained (more difficult for the skin spy to escape) and the stadium seating allows Kellhus to see everyone's faces without diffculty.

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