Judging Eye III

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Umm, if the gods didn't notice Inchoroi, Consult and Scylvendi - all souled beings hell-bent on destroying the world, why would they notice anything at all?

This theory assumes that HG are not truly sentient, but rather something like sophisticated computer programs - or perhaps scramblers from Blindsight. They don't notice anything they are not programmed to notice. Even if it isn't the case. they probably wouldn't be concerned very much with Scylvendi beliefs. They are heathens and therefore damned. Who cares what they say? Consult is only a handful of sorcerers and therefore not really significant from their perspective.

IMHO, Kelhus going to the Outside and specifically stirring up the gods thereby is a great idea that would explain everything.

It also sounds plausible. We have to wait and see what happens next.

[Tears of Lys]

As for why the 100 are waking up? I think it may be because Kellhus went to the outside (the demon heads on his belt) and invaded their territory/turf and that jolted them from their stupor. This may be a deliberate effort on his part as well. If he doesn't expect to survive or return, awakening the hundred and their cults effectively splinters the empire making it an unusable tool for any other ambitious, but unfit, successor. He also could be planning on manipulating the 100 in the fight against the Consult in a way they don't expect, but he can't use a tool if it's asleep and out of reach in the outside. So he made a ruckus and now they're waking up. :) Perhaps Kell feels he needs the 100 an active part of the world in order for the Great Ordeal to succeed atGolgotteranth?

By jove, I think you've got something there! :P

I was stumbling around on the same path, but hadn't quite gotten there.

[lokisnow]

crackpot theory

what if everyone's perspective is wrong, and the no-god wasn't intended to fuck with humanity, but was the inchoroi revenge on the denizens of the outside? The ark was cast from the outside, correct? So if the no-god succeeded would it have 'killed' everyone in the outside, a side effect would be the whole, no live births things (presumably because there are no souls that can come from outside and inhabit the fetal body, but perhaps the desired outcome in shutting the world from the outside is to starve the dwellers of the outside, rather than kill off the souled being inside.

[Paxter]

So are they really from "The Outside?" Or did they just crash land on a nice hunk of rock with plenty of prospects for rape?

Personally, I don't think they are from the Outside. I agree with you that the Outside is not space - there is a very clear distinction between the Outside (the plane on which demons, gods and souls of dead people exist) and the void/heavens/space. See Ajencis' description of the Outside (as a plane/s of diminishing objectivity) in the TTT glossary for some textual evidence on this (assuming Ajencis is correct ;) ). If the Inchoroi were from the Outside, they would never have come from there to Earwa (the point of maximal objectivity - where circumstances do not yield to subjective desire). Ergo, they must be from space.

[Benjen Stark]

As for why the 100 are waking up? I think it may be because Kellhus went to the outside (the demon heads on his belt) and invaded their territory/turf and that jolted them from their stupor.

Crackpot:

What if the "gods" are sorcerers who have progressed to the 3rd inutterable, ala Kellhus, and passed the gate into the outside. They may indeed still fall afoul of the other traits we have speculated about them: stupid, partially blind to the world, etc. But they are gods solely because they have mastered a skill that allowed them to enter the Outside bodily and wrest control of a portion of it. In that case, Yatwer reacting to Kelhus is a simple case of turf war from one of the most powerful denizens objecting to a potential threat.

I have to admit, that my views of polytheism are perhaps too influenced by Pratchett's Small Gods...

[Ser Paladin]

You guys keep mentioning the gods "waking up". I'm fairly sure the gods were awake in the first trilogy.

Onkis (Onkcis? can't remember) warns Inrau of his imminent demise. Gilgaol looks out through somebody's eyes at some point. I just get the impression that the gods aren't terribly potent on the inside. They can look through, maybe "nudge" things. And really, aside from your "Ares" equivalent, who would you expect to see from the pantheon on a march to war?

It takes the most powerful priestess of the most numerous cult to get White Luck to manifest, and even that feels like a mediocre superpower being bestowed on some poor schmuck.

They can't do all that much on Earwa. Aren't there a few more effective plans for a god to take out the Aspect-Emperor than throwing a leveled up warrior with a phenomenal dodge ability up against a teleporting ninja/monk with Pink Floyd laser show magic?

[Kalbear]

Fuck you, man. He's not just a leveled up warrior - he can also cast a cantrip (Glamour) on people.

[Ser Paladin]

he can also cast a cantrip (Glamour) on people.

I missed that. Unless you are talking about him being "invisible" to Kelly's face reading.

[Paxter]

Crackpot:

What if the "gods" are sorcerers who have progressed to the 3rd inutterable, ala Kellhus, and passed the gate into the outside. They may indeed still fall afoul of the other traits we have speculated about them: stupid, partially blind to the world, etc. But they are gods solely because they have mastered a skill that allowed them to enter the Outside bodily and wrest control of a portion of it. In that case, Yatwer reacting to Kelhus is a simple case of turf war from one of the most powerful denizens objecting to a potential threat.

Interesting. There is a rather obvious similarity between the Gods (who live in a dimension where the environment yields to subjective desire) and sorcerers (who are able to alter the environment based on their own desires using magic, despite the fact that they exist in a realm of "maximal objectivity"). So perhaps there is some merit in your suggestion as to the true nature of the Gods.

[Paxter]

I've been thinking back on Kellhus' amazing feat of convincing the sorcerers that they were not damned. I did a bit of digging, and then (thanks mainly to this timeline) I remembered that this has happened before. In 1123 (more than 3000 years before the events of TJE), Shaeonanra (Grandvizier of the Mangaecca) claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery. The Mangaecca was then banished for its contravention of the Tusk, and fled into the open arms of the Inchoroi.

So, the question is, has Kellhus actually rediscovered a means of saving the souls of sorcerers, like Shaeonanra claimed to have done? Or has he merely convinced the sorcerers that they are not damned using his Dunyain intellect (like he did with Esmi back in the PoN)? I am starting to think that it may be the former. Which then leads to the question: what is this means of salvation?? Is it the same means of salvation that the Inchoroi/Consult are currently pursuing (i.e. trying to wipe the humans off the planet by creating the No-God, and therefore sealing the world against the Outside)?? If so, this is more evidence that Kellhus will become the No-God or at least aid in bringing the No-God back.

[Shryke]

Is it the same means of salvation that the Inchoroi/Consult are currently pursuing (i.e. trying to wipe the humans off the planet by creating the No-God, and therefore sealing the world against the Outside)??

It seems like the most obvious and most supported theory. Remember:

684 - The Gnostic school of Mangaecca is founded by Sos-Praniura (the greatest student of Gin’yursis).[

777 - Cet’ingira, or Mekertrig, reveals the Incû-Holoinas, or Min-Uroikas, to the School of Mangaecca.

The Mangaecca already existed at the time and had a good 300+ years to find and chat it up with the Inchoroi before they were exiled. The most obvious answer is that he got his ideas on "Salvation" from the Inchoroi.

[Borque]

684 - The Gnostic school of Mangaecca is founded by Sos-Praniura (the greatest student of Gin’yursis)

This must be the same Gin'yursis that we saw in Cil-Aujas. Interesting - didn't notice this before.

[Paxter]

The most obvious answer is that he got his ideas on "Salvation" from the Inchoroi.

So, given that Kellhus' ideas of redemption of sorcerers are likely based on those of the Consult/Inchoroi, can we conclude that there is a greater than even chance that Kellhus is actively working to further the goals of the Consult?

ETA: that might explain why the Consult were conspicuously absent in TJE - if Kellhus is "on their side", they don't need to be that active.

[Tears of Lys]

But... but... but... ! That does seem to be the most obvious answer, but that's one of the things that makes me suspect it's not the true one. Why would Kellhus kill his father, when Kellhus' probability trance led him to believe that his father's line of reasoning would lead to the same conclusion? And why would he direct all these efforts towards the saving of sorceror's souls? So he becomes a sorceror so that he can be in a stronger position to save sorcerors' souls??

What little we've seen of his motives in the last 2-3 books has just given us tantalizing hints that he is in closer touch with humanity than his Dunyain training would seem to allow for. His thoughts as he's bound to Serwe on the Circumfix, his flashes of pity for Cnaiur, his secret dismay that Esme will always love Akka more so than him. You may say well, these are so rare that they prove the point by their rarity. But I say that in a Dunyain, it is remarkable that they occur at all.

I'm still in the camp that says Kellhus is one of the "good" guys - as unpalatable as his methods may be. That is, if the Consult/Inchoroi can be considered the "bad" guys. I'm not really sure, quite frankly, that that's what Bakker's got up his sleeve.

[Shryke]

So, given that Kellhus' ideas of redemption of sorcerers are likely based on those of the Consult/Inchoroi, can we conclude that there is a greater than even chance that Kellhus is actively working to further the goals of the Consult?

ETA: that might explain why the Consult were conspicuously absent in TJE - if Kellhus is "on their side", they don't need to be that active.

Um .... huh? How is this at all a given?

[kuenjato]

But... but... but... ! That does seem to be the most obvious answer, but that's one of the things that makes me suspect it's not the true one. Why would Kellhus kill his father, when Kellhus' probability trance led him to believe that his father's line of reasoning would lead to the same conclusion? And why would he direct all these efforts towards the saving of sorceror's souls? So he becomes a sorceror so that he can be in a stronger position to save sorcerors' souls??

What little we've seen of his motives in the last 2-3 books has just given us tantalizing hints that he is in closer touch with humanity than his Dunyain training would seem to allow for. His thoughts as he's bound to Serwe on the Circumfix, his flashes of pity for Cnaiur, his secret dismay that Esme will always love Akka more so than him. You may say well, these are so rare that they prove the point by their rarity. But I say that in a Dunyain, it is remarkable that they occur at all.

I'm still in the camp that says Kellhus is one of the "good" guys - as unpalatable as his methods may be. That is, if the Consult/Inchoroi can be considered the "bad" guys. I'm not really sure, quite frankly, that that's what Bakker's got up his sleeve.

I agree, somewhat. I'm re-reading The Judging Eye, and my suspicion - initiated from the first read - is that Kellhus's plan is to somehow overthrow the Gods/God - to become "Him."

Granted, there isn't any strong evidence for this theory, except his personality and the pretty obvious desire to not become damned himself for sorcery. Hopefully Bakker will give us a Kellhus POV in the next book, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Paxter]

Um .... huh? How is this at all a given?

I must have interpreted you incorrectly.

I though that this:

It seems like the most obvious and most supported theory. Remember:

meant that you thought it was likely that Kellhus' ideas of redemption of sorcerers are likely based on those of the Consult/Inchoroi.

BTW guys, I am far from convinced about what I said in my earlier post, and I share Tear of Lys' scepticism.

ETA: I've been re-reading your post Shryke and I think I have confused you:

- You thought I was talking about a parallel between what the Mangaecca "re-discovered" about salvation and what the Consult/Inchoroi are pursuing. Obviously such a parallel exists, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

- I was actually talking about a parallel between what the Mangaecca "re-discovered" about salvation and what Kellhus' version of "salvation" is.

My hypothesis is that Kellhus has "rediscovered" the same version of salvation that the Mangaecca/Consult/Inchoroi believe, and therefore, is actively trying to bring back or become the No-God. The evidence is that there seems to be a similarity between Kellhus figuring out how to save the souls of sorcerers during the 20 year gap and how Shaeonanra figured out how to save the souls of sorcerers 3000 years ago (both of them have had contact with the Inchoroi before making the "discovery")

Again, I reiterate that this all fairly speculative and I am not trying to convince you guys of anything definitive.

[Paxter]

What little we've seen of his motives in the last 2-3 books has just given us tantalizing hints that he is in closer touch with humanity than his Dunyain training would seem to allow for. His thoughts as he's bound to Serwe on the Circumfix, his flashes of pity for Cnaiur, his secret dismay that Esme will always love Akka more so than him. You may say well, these are so rare that they prove the point by their rarity. But I say that in a Dunyain, it is remarkable that they occur at all.

Of course these "closer in touch with humanity" moments could really just mean that Kellhus is mad, as per the TJE synopsis. Not that that is conclusive, because I agree with Kalbear and others that the synopsis might be based on a subjective point of view.

[Shryke]

My hypothesis is that Kellhus has "rediscovered" the same version of salvation that the Mangaecca/Consult/Inchoroi believe, and therefore, is actively trying to bring back or become the No-God.

Except the end of TTT completely contradicts this. He kills his father because he believes/knows his father will side with the Consult.

Kellhus' Salvation =/= Consult, Mangaecca, Inchoroi Salvation

[Paxter]

Except the end of TTT completely contradicts this.

Of course, the end of TTT was 20 years ago. Things change. People change. We really don't know what Kellhus is thinking now. All we know is that he has re-discovered salvation, which seems to me to be analogous with Shaeonanra's discovery.

Kellhus' Salvation =/= Consult, Mangaecca, Inchoroi Salvation

If you believe this (and I am not saying that you are wrong), then my initial question (from four posts ago) remains: what is Kellhus' proposed means of salvation?

The only other means I can think of is that he really has gone mad, really does believe himself to be the "god in small" and therefore really believes that he can save people through his own spoken word. It's a very un-Dunyain thing to do. But then again:

"You are Dunyain still, Father."

"As are -"

"I am more", the Warrior Prophet said