Judging Eye III

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

There's really no reason why they should be involved, at least not in the recent history of the Three Seas. They are only aware of their existence through their legends and histories - considering that the Gates themselves are far beyond the reach of Men, lost in the Wilds, there is no reason for them to have gone there.

Also, considering the location of the crashsite of the Ark-of-the-Skies, there's no compelling reason for the Inchoroi to have gone to Eanna. They had their hands full with the Non-Men initially and then the Men of Earwa. Eventually, they presumably would have wanted to destroy Eanna, since there were people there, but the Three Seas had to be conquered first.

One last thought - for all we know, the Eannan peoples (perhaps more than just the Xiuhanni, perhaps not) have been attempting to cross. There are evidently hordes of Sranc between the Great Kayarsus and the Three Seas, so any attempt would likely end in disaster. By the same token, it's possible that Sranc have crossed the Great Kayarsus through the Gates independent of Consult or Inchoroi direction in order to feed upon the Xiuhanni. After all, where else would every single Sranc find enough human bone and skin to make clothes for itself? It's not like there are THAT many people left in the North.

[delete this account pls]

Chanv is the reason. A brain-boosting drug with mysterious origins rumoured to come from Eanna. It's not a huge plotline or anything, but it is an active part of the story, and I think Bakker will follow up on it. He's meticulous about stuff like that.

T'ilimyakos - nice sig :thumbsup:

[Shryke]

Aye, after rereading PoN series awhile back, I'm pretty much certain that Chanv will play some sort of part. The description of it's effects set off some serious "This sounds like it will be important" lights.

[Ski the Swift]

It does?

[Maia]

Also, considering the location of the crashsite of the Ark-of-the-Skies, there's no compelling reason for the Inchoroi to have gone to Eanna.

I, OTOH, am quite certain that Inchoroi were behind the invasion of the Four Tribes in the first place and that the Tusk has their fingerprints all over it. They may not have had technological knowledge to repair the Arc, but making helicopters (or already having some) wouldn't have been out of realm of possibility.

And if I was Consult, I'd have been working on Eannans to organize the second invasion. After all, they'd still need to eradicate them, so why not have them die in a useful fashion, killing Eärwans?

[sologdin]

he Tusk has their fingerprints all over it.

RSB ripped off planescape: torment? hahahahah nice!

he should probably write out a complete tusk and append it to the next volume, so that we may subject it to immanent critique.

[Shryke]

I, OTOH, am quite certain that Inchoroi were behind the invasion of the Four Tribes in the first place and that the Tusk has their fingerprints all over it. They may not have had technological knowledge to repair the Arc, but making helicopters (or already having some) wouldn't have been out of realm of possibility.

And if I was Consult, I'd have been working on Eannans to organize the second invasion. After all, they'd still need to eradicate them, so why not have them die in a useful fashion, killing Eärwans?

What gives any hint that the Inchoroi have anything to do with the invasion of the Four Tribes?

By the time the Four Tribes crossed the mountains, the Inchoroi were defeated and for an unknown amount of time too. On top of that, it had been probably 600+ years since they first crashed on Earwa.

The Non-Men were weakened by their war with the Inchoroi and Man finally managed to push them out of their fortresses in the mountains. The fact that they HAD fortresses there seems to indicate that Man had been pushing to get through that pass for a long time now.

It does?

Yes.

[Maia]

What gives any hint that the Inchoroi have anything to do with the invasion of the Four Tribes?

How on earth could they have overwhelmed the Non-Men without Chorae? We have seen what Non-Men sorcerers can do. And where could they have gotten Chorae? Right, our friends the Inchies.

I don't have the texts to hand , but the tidbits of the Tusk we were shown seemed to fit very well with the notion. It calls for eradication of Non-Men, sorcery and brutal subjugation of women - all very much in Inchy sense.

That the invasion started when it was already too late for the Inchies - well, shit happens. But that they were insigators and faciliators of it I have no doubt.

[Shryke]

How on earth could they have overwhelmed the Non-Men without Chorae? We have seen what Non-Men sorcerers can do. And where could they have gotten Chorae? Right, our friends the Inchies.

They had superior numbers and sorcerors of their own. Man was practicing magic LONG before the Non-men tutelage. They just weren't as good at it.

I don't have the texts to hand , but the tidbits of the Tusk we were shown seemed to fit very well with the notion. It calls for eradication of Non-Men, sorcery and brutal subjugation of women - all very much in Inchy sense.

Actually, it sounds much more "primitive man" then it sounds "Inchoroi like". Patriarichal societies that despise magic, subjugate women and hate everyone who's different from them don't need space aliens to exist. They are pretty standard among primitive humans actually.

[Ski the Swift]

Yes.

I was hoping for some sort of explanation as to why people think Chanv will play a large part.

[jurble]

Where exactly do Chorae come from? Are they made, or does it occasionally rain Chorae (tears of god lol?). Just pop into existence? I thought it was mentioned they were finite, so they had to have an origin somewhere.

[Shryke]

Non-men made them. Specifically, a renegade (as far as we know now extinct) sect of Non-men sorcerers.

[Guy Kilmore]

Where exactly do Chorae come from? Are they made, or does it occasionally rain Chorae (tears of god lol?). Just pop into existence? I thought it was mentioned they were finite, so they had to have an origin somewhere.

It would suck to be the sorcerer stuck under that rainstorm. I mean, getting turned into a pillar of salt on a simple stroll because you forgot your umbrella.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

According to the index of TTT, Chorae are small iron spheres banded in the text of the Nonmen Quya, and that the secrets of their construction are part of a lost branch of magic called the Aporos. So, built by Nonmen after all.

It seems to me that men may have acquired them in the first place from fallen Nonmen Mansions and garrisons, like the Gates. As to taking them in the first place, a weak Nonman garrison, even with the power of the Gnosis and aided by the lack of Chorae among their enemies, would still be susceptible to a vast horde of Men with the support of a great number of Anagogic sorcerers.

[Happy Ent]

[...] a vast horde of Men with the support of a great number of Anagogic sorcerers.

I’m confused. Are we certain that those men had sorcery? It’s forbidden by the Tusk, after all…

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I’m confused. Are we certain that those men had sorcery? It’s forbidden by the Tusk, after all…

Well but it still is according to Inrithism and there are still sorcerers in the Three Seas, and the Thousand Temples even maintains its own school. Also, it's mentioned in the back history of the Ancient North that the Anagogic schools began learning the Gnosis from the Quya at Ishterebinth - so there were Anagogic sorcerers among Men before there were Gnostic ones. I don't remember its name, but whatever writings form the basis of Anagogic sorcery were written before the Nonmen began to teach the Gnosis, IIRC. The PoN timeline is very helpful, but I don't have the link handy - I'll try to take a look at it.

On a more speculative front, I'd hazard that no host of Men could have defeated even a meagre force of Nonmen sorcerers at the Gates without sorcery, considering that they almost certainly did not have Chorae.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Maybe the Nonmen in the fortresses stopped giving a fuck after the Inichoroi were gone. There was a reference somewhere to many Nonmen more or less baring their throats to the men who wanted to kill them.

[Tears of Lys]

Maybe the Nonmen in the fortresses stopped giving a fuck after the Inichoroi were gone. There was a reference somewhere to many Nonmen more or less baring their throats to the men who wanted to kill them.

I'd buy that. Their women were gone, their number was seriously dwindled. They had pretty bleak memories of nothing but death and loss and a long time to consider it.

[Shryke]

Well but it still is according to Inrithism and there are still sorcerers in the Three Seas, and the Thousand Temples even maintains its own school. Also, it's mentioned in the back history of the Ancient North that the Anagogic schools began learning the Gnosis from the Quya at Ishterebinth - so there were Anagogic sorcerers among Men before there were Gnostic ones. I don't remember its name, but whatever writings form the basis of Anagogic sorcery were written before the Nonmen began to teach the Gnosis, IIRC. The PoN timeline is very helpful, but I don't have the link handy - I'll try to take a look at it.

On a more speculative front, I'd hazard that no host of Men could have defeated even a meagre force of Nonmen sorcerers at the Gates without sorcery, considering that they almost certainly did not have Chorae.

Yup. It's quite obvious some form of sorcery or witchcraft or what have you existed before the Non-men tutelage.

[delete this account pls]

Shamans. Prophets that use sorcery.