Judging Eye III

[lokisnow]

what makes the tusk so holy? does it talk? if so, I'd say Inchies made it.

[Shryke]

The Tusk is like the Bible, if the Bible was cool enough to be carved onto a giant hunk of ivory that someone tore out of a mastodon's face.

[Xereaux]

I always regarded it just as background information. Has there been any in-story mention of the lands and people of Eänna? I don't remember any.

:rofl:

Indeed. One of the Skin Eaters is mentioned as having Jekhian heritage:

"There was Xonghis, a Jekki hillman who had been a former Imperial Tracker." (Page 189, TJE hardcover)

The Thousandfold Thought glossary's entry on Jehkia states:

"A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics." (Page 455, TTT hardcover)

Edit: added reference to Jekhia, found description of Xonghis.

[Shryke]

I was hoping for some sort of explanation as to why people think Chanv will play a large part.

Unfortunately, the books are many many miles away right now, so I can't refresh my memory.

But basically, the source of Chanv is ... mysterious and it's effects extend life but seem to kill the soul or something like that. Seemed important, not just some throw-away reference.

[lokisnow]

I was hoping for some sort of explanation as to why people think Chanv will play a large part.

The Spice must flow.

[konstantine]

Finally got around to reading this and I did enjoy it but there were some parts that I really had no clue wtf was happening. I haven't had a chance to read through the threads yet so I'm sure there are posts that clears up some of these things for me. The main issue I had, and maybe it's because I read the entire book really late at night, but I pretty much couldn't follow the entire last Cil-Aujas chapter. The Nonman that showed up, I had no clue what that was about haha. And what Mimara did to the Chorae.

Other than that I really enjoyed the book. I liked Cleric and Kelmomas. They were really fucked up. Achamian remains my favorite character though.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Finally got around to reading this and I did enjoy it but there were some parts that I really had no clue wtf was happening. I haven't had a chance to read through the threads yet so I'm sure there are posts that clears up some of these things for me. The main issue I had, and maybe it's because I read the entire book really late at night, but I pretty much couldn't follow the entire last Cil-Aujas chapter. The Nonman that showed up, I had no clue what that was about haha. And what Mimara did to the Chorae.

Other than that I really enjoyed the book. I liked Cleric and Kelmomas. They were really fucked up. Achamian remains my favorite character though.

I didn't really understand the Chorae thing, either, but speculation on three-seas forum seems to run that Chorae anchor objective reality in place - this is how they cancel out magic, more explanation in a moment - and since reality was changing during their flight, her use of the Chorae prevented reality from changing further. It seems to be linked to the Judging Eye, which is hinted at being a special gift that allows people to see reality objectively - so the connection to Chorae there is clear.

re magic and Chorae - the speculation on the three-seas board basically runs like this: sorcerers use magic (ie the God's voice) to change reality according to their own designs, but since they are not, in fact, the God, they can only achieve surface change. Chorae anchor objective reality - ie reality as created by the perfection of the God's voice - in place, and therefore prevent sorcerers from changing it according to their whims. There is more, about why they appear as a hole in the onta to sorcerers and the exact properties for why sorcerers turn to salt when touched by one, but I don't remember it exactly.

[konstantine]

I didn't really understand the Chorae thing, either, but speculation on three-seas forum seems to run that Chorae anchor objective reality in place - this is how they cancel out magic, more explanation in a moment - and since reality was changing during their flight, her use of the Chorae prevented reality from changing further. It seems to be linked to the Judging Eye, which is hinted at being a special gift that allows people to see reality objectively - so the connection to Chorae there is clear.

re magic and Chorae - the speculation on the three-seas board basically runs like this: sorcerers use magic (ie the God's voice) to change reality according to their own designs, but since they are not, in fact, the God, they can only achieve surface change. Chorae anchor objective reality - ie reality as created by the perfection of the God's voice - in place, and therefore prevent sorcerers from changing it according to their whims. There is more, about why they appear as a hole in the onta to sorcerers and the exact properties for why sorcerers turn to salt when touched by one, but I don't remember it exactly.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes more sense now.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Thanks for the explanation. That makes more sense now.

Well, keep in mind that this is speculation only, although very well defined speculation concerning the metaphysics of Earwa. Here's the link to the very long but very very good essay on the subject, from three-seas.org.

Here the basic arguments for the metaphysics are argued, pre-TJE: very comprehensive, very good, with some thoughts about Chorae, as I have summarized, although in this link he is using them to talk about the nature of the No-God.

Here is the continuation of this argument with the new information from TJE. Just a bit down is the part about the Chorae as used by Mimara - I'd recommend reading the first arguments about Chorae before this one. He elucidates his point much more clearly than I have.

[lokisnow]

one thing to possibly consider (not having read the links) is that Kellhus could eventually be (or currently is) a walking Chorae. If he can speak with the god's voice perfectly (or more perfectly) and combine that with his Dunyain abiliities to control people he is in effect acting as a reality anchor (or perhaps black hole is a better description?) although this ability to alter reality could very well be subjectively false, because he is changing everything he's in effect rendering it as a new objective reality.

Why do I get the feeling that we're going to learn about the evolution of god(s) in this series? which reminds me, I need to pick up that book, the Evolution of God, it sucked about 90 minutes away from me in the bookstore the other day. :-p

[Happy Ent]

one thing to possibly consider (not having read the links) is that Kellhus could eventually be (or currently is) a walking Chorae.

Definitely not. Chorae are poison to him, just as to any other sorcerer. We actually see him salinize in Eye, when he makes first contact with Sorweel.

[sologdin]

very very good essay on the subject

meh. the essays bring some threads together and sort a few items of interest--but on the whole, they fail to persuade: too many inferential leaps unwarranted by textual evidence, too much inapposite application of extrinsica, and, frankly, too many errors.

[Kalbear]

On salting, Chorae and Kellhus - isn't that evidence enough (assuming you use the trinket theory) that Kellhus is lying and the objective reality isn't changed by him? In other words, if he weren't lying - if he were part of the Godhead and was doing the God's own work, and everyone believed him enough to change things (or he was genuinely correct) Chorae (by that essay's general premise) could not possibly work on him, since his work is part of God's design.

Therefore either Chorae are incorrectly theorized and work a different way for different reasons, or Kellhus is lying.

[Happy Ent]

[...] or Kellhus is lying.

But of course he’s lying. There’s no doubt about that.

He’s also the Messiah, and could easily be so by the god’s design (whatever that should mean – it’s inappropriate to posit agency to the intents and working of such an entity yet use human verbiage for it).

I see no contradiction.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

On salting, Chorae and Kellhus - isn't that evidence enough (assuming you use the trinket theory) that Kellhus is lying and the objective reality isn't changed by him? In other words, if he weren't lying - if he were part of the Godhead and was doing the God's own work, and everyone believed him enough to change things (or he was genuinely correct) Chorae (by that essay's general premise) could not possibly work on him, since his work is part of God's design.

Therefore either Chorae are incorrectly theorized and work a different way for different reasons, or Kellhus is lying.

ETA - I think that Chorae working on Kellhus is irrelevant to the question of Kellhus' divinity. They work on him because he has used sorcery, just as they would on any other sorcerer. Even if he is indeed a prophet, that just means that he is perhaps intimately connected to the God in a way that we don't yet understand. It has nothing to do with his practice of sorcery. His sorcery is Gnostic, and we have ample evidence showing that the Gnosis is far from a perfect recollection of the God's voice. So, the Chorae theory can still be correct.

As to Kellhus changing reality (non-magically)... Thorsten theorizes that the God is a product of human super-conscious, and therefore that belief can shape reality by bending the God to the minds of the many***; this also shows why the Thousandfold Thought is so powerful. In essence, it has the power to change objective reality by changing fundamental beliefs. One of these is, of course, the damnation of sorcerers, which he declares false - but Mimara's Judging Eye shows them as damned regardless.

So, the options are:

1. Kellhus is lying.

2. Kellhus is wrong.

3. There's something else going on.

Thorsten claims that the answer could be 3 - he proposes that Kellhus used the Thousandfold Thought and his Dunyain powers to get the power of belief behind him, and actually did un-damn sorcerers. But, 20 years later, he is not as well-loved across his empire as he was originally. The cult of Yatwer and its influence shows this nicely. So, it is possible that the growing influence of Yatwer is actually changing reality back to a state in which sorcerers are damned, simply because Kellhus has failed to maintain a proper fervency of belief among the populace.

Granted, it's a bit of a stretch - but it DOES fit, and it does provide a logical explanation that fits within the context of what we know of Earwa's metaphysics and Kellhus. In this way, it is possible that he is indeed a prophet - just one whose influence is being resisted.

Of course, it's still imminently possible that Kellhus is just lying. I feel that this is too easy, though. I don't mean this to say that it might not be true, of course. I mean this to say that given the amount of evidence on both sides, and the fact of it being totally up in the air as of the end of TTT (though in my opinion there were some very strong indicators that he actually IS a prophet), I think that it's a bit of a let-down for us to find out he was lying simply because of Mimara's JE.

To finish, a final possibility: Kellhus is not a prophet; rather, he's simply insane. He still may or may not be able to change objective reality vis-a-vis sorcerers as stated above, but it doesn't matter. I've toyed with the idea that the Thousandfold Thought actually made Kellhus into a prophet, but I'm too lazy to do serious textual research on the subject :rolleyes:

*** - an interesting aspect of this argument is that pre-Holy War, a Cishaurim would have been damned in, say, High Ainon or Galeoth, but not in the Fanim Empire. It's been theorized that the God reflects geography, because different parts of the Outside touch different parts of the "Inside" and are therefore influenced differently by it. I don't necessarily buy into this, but it's an interesting theory.

[sologdin]

but it's an interesting theory

do any of the speculations posted in these threads count as theory? i.e., is there a shred of evidence to support the elaborate inferential edifices built thereupon?

[unJon]

1) I of course think that the God is very real indeed, so there is no contradiction. And if the cult or Döchbág has enough followers to grasp the Thousandfold Thought (badgers with souls would suffice), then he is a douchebag.

This is not what TTT is. TTT is a meme for uniting the Three Seas through the merger and reinterpetation of Inrithi and Fanimry "independently" developed by Moe and Kel. The stated purpose is to form a sufficient base of people to stop the Second Apocalypse, not to change the Outside. Whether or not "objective reality" is changed by TTT is incidental to its creation and avowed purpose.

What indication is there that they came on purpose?

Seriously? You know how astronomically unlikely it would be to accidentally stumble on Earwa in all the Void??

I don't see why'd Eanna would be important, or why we should want it. It's a land, people live there, but that's not where the Inchoroi crashed, and we don't even know if they have nonmen there, so in all likelihood, the people in Eanna are far more happy and satisfied with their lives, than people in Earwa.

Still, I would think that you need to exterminate the Eanna people to clos the world from the Outside also, no? Unless the metaphysics are continent specific? :unsure:

General point on the nice list of options on the last page:

The answer, IMO, is that the absolute rule in Earwa is that what comes before determines what comes after. Period. Moe, as the sane Dunyain to spend years contemplating the issue concluded, even the Outside is subject to the principle. I think that Kel proclaiming that sorcerors are not damned has not made it so. He is lying. However, it could be made so. Someone could "come before" the Outside and dominate it. I think that's what Kel is attempting.

[sologdin]

You know how astronomically unlikely it would be to accidentally stumble on Earwa in all the Void??

the percentage chance of landing on RSBworld at the outset of the journey is very small, sure--but once they've accidentally landed thereupon, the chance is 100%.

i.e., they've gotta land somewhere.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

but it's an interesting theory

do any of the speculations posted in these threads count as theory? i.e., is there a shred of evidence to support the elaborate inferential edifices built thereupon?

To the particular theory that I was mentioning (about geographical correspondents in the Outside), I'm not sure. It's just something that I've seen bandied about that was interesting and made me think.

It provides answers to questions raised in the text - for example, whether Inrithism or Fanimism are objectively correct or incorrect - and does not contradict the text. It has fully as much weight behind it as some of the theories about ASOIAF that I've seen on this forum.

[jurble]

Is the God of Fanimry the same as the God of Kellhusism?