Judging Eye III

[Shryke]

Well, yeah, but at the same time it's pretty ludicrous to pack up a circus tent when you're going to war.

Showmanship is MOST important in war, when Conviction is what matters.

[Kalbear]

Showmanship is MOST important in war, when Conviction is what matters.

And I understand that some armies when, say, fighting for the sake of the entire world, would be okay without a circus tent and popcorn. Maybe they'd even be okay not having stadium seating? Possibly? I mean, did they bring elephants, jugglers, and trained bears?

That'd also be pretty showy.

[kuenjato]

And I understand that some armies when, say, fighting for the sake of the entire world, would be okay without a circus tent and popcorn. Maybe they'd even be okay not having stadium seating? Possibly? I mean, did they bring elephants, jugglers, and trained bears?

That'd also be pretty showy.

What a ridiculous nitpick, this argument. :thumbsdown:

[Kalbear]

It was just a weird observation, is all. Surprised everyone's defending it so vehemently.

The whole gods awakening just in time for this series was a lot worse.

[polishgenius]

I'm pretty sure that back in medival days, while they might not have packed circus tents, army leaders would have certainly made a show of things.

And it seems to me that Kellhus needs, or at least wants, those sessions, it helps him play up his own legend. It's another tool in his box.

[Shryke]

The whole gods awakening just in time for this series was a lot worse.

What's bad about that?

You seem to assume the events of the series aren't what caused that.

[Kalbear]

You seem to assume the events of the series aren't what caused that.

No, I assume it's sloppy storytelling. Regardless of what the cause is or what Bakker rationalizes it to be, it's pretty lame as presented; we were given nary a hint of the gods in the original series save as being simply 'wrong', and their presence was barely there. Then they show up in force, and just in time to be a foil for Kellhus.

It may be that Bakker planned it that way from day one. But it doesn't look that way regardless of what his intents were.

It's actually fairly similar to how powerful the worshippers of the 7 were in AFFC. We barely got anything from the holy side of things, and all of a sudden we've got armies of devout rampaging across the countryside? In GRRM's case I know that's one of the things that he wanted to develop over the 5-year gap, and I understand why it feels shoehorned in. In Bakker's case I don't know, but it still looks as shoehorned in.

[Shryke]

PON never states that the Gods are wrong. Hell, Kellhus states the exact opposite.

The Fanim think all Gods but the Solitary God are Demons, but that's about it. Well, there's also Moenghus' belief that the Outside if just a reflection of the real world, but even that doesn't deny the idea of gods.

Beyond that, with Kellhus overturning shit left and right and raising himself up as a God of sorts, it would make sense for the Gods to wake up and be pissed around now.

Though, frankly, we know too little about Gods or what them "waking up" even means to make any comments on the matter.

Also, they haven't shown up "in force" at all. We've got hints that the Worshippers of one of said gods is setting their eyes on toppling Kellhus. And the whole White-Luck thing seems to be that god (and maybe others) taking a shot at him. But we've got far too little information right now to say much of anything.

[Kalbear]

Also, they haven't shown up "in force" at all. We've got hints that the Worshippers of one of said gods is setting their eyes on toppling Kellhus. And the whole White-Luck thing seems to be that god (and maybe others) taking a shot at him. But we've got far too little information right now to say much of anything.

What we know is that Maithanet believes the gods are waking up, and that they were sleeping.

We know that the Cult of Yatwer apparently has all sorts of wacky rituals for doing all manner of things...that apparently haven't worked for millenia. But now they all work - and all sorts of worshippers actually know the rituals and expect them to work.

We know that Kellhus didn't know about this at all despite all his readings, which means the history about them has no indication of wacky magical powers.

We know that despite the Consult almost destroying the world and everyone in it, the gods didn't wake up (or did so little that they were essentially powerless). But Kellhus making a woman a sorcerer and stating (not making, merely stating) that sorcerers and women aren't damned? Oh yeah, that brings 'em running.

We know that they didn't wake up when Moenghus was taking over the Cishaurim, or they were equally powerless.

And we know all of this from the last book, because the previous trilogy never even hinted so much as these gods having a whit of power or motive force whatsoever. Kellhus comments specifically that they were just aspects of the one true god, and the Fanim believe them to be demons and not real gods - but there's not a single remote hint that they might be actually powerful beings.

We don't know a lot of things. But the important thing we do know? They weren't important enough to bring up in the entire first trilogy, yet they are a central component of the new series. That, right there, is in general the sign of a poor choice in writing. I like sol's theory though - instead of him simply making this shit up, let's say that he played benjuka with his book's plots as the pieces. That makes as much sense as anything else.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

If the "gods" somehow derive power from worship it would take something like an all encompassing Emperor who claims to be an aspect of the "God" to really cut into the "gods" worship. Perhaps that's why Yatwer has deigned to take notice now. Kellhus is starting to really affect the juice that's flowing her way.

[Shryke]

We know very little actually. We don't know if those rituals have worked in the past or not. We don't know if the gods used to be "awake" in the past either. The last series said very little about the gods at all, or their power. We learned the Outside was real, in some sense or other, but beyond that, nothing.

What we do know is that major shit is going down right now. The gods waking up may be connected to that, but who knows. The first series only detailed Kellhus' rise to power, and gave at best some hints at the overall world around the Holy War. New shit is bound to come up.

[sologdin]

the gods are waking up, and that they were sleeping

ph'nglui mglw'nafh c'thulhu r'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn, &c.

stealing from lovecraft, mccarthy, and tolkien? and all for moneys?

FFS. bakker is such a sellout.

[Paxter]

They weren't important enough to bring up in the entire first trilogy, yet they are a central component of the new series.

I can see where you're coming from Kal. But, personally, I don't think it was the case that the gods weren't important enough to bring up during the PoN (except in the TTT appendix ;) ), it's just that the gods had no reason to intervene until Kellhus became Aspect-Emperor. Only after the events of TTT does it become obvious that Kellhus is "He who misleads the blind man on the road!", an oppressor and manipulator of the menial castes, which gives the Yatwerians a motivation to seek "the knife that cuts". Before that, Kellhus was just a Prince of Nothing.

Also, recall the analogy provided by Eskeles: the God is broken into innumerable pieces. These pieces are not equal - the more important ones are the Hundred Gods. The HGs like this status quo because it gives them power over the smaller fragments (like, in Yatwer's case, slaves and the menial castes). But then, following the events of TTT, a new fragment arrives. But this fragment is not a fragment at all. It is "the god in small" - "Anasurimbor Kellhus is the God of Gods come to walk among us". The large fragments (the HGs) don't like the fact that Kellhus has threatened their dominance of the other fragments post-TTT, and so are actively seeking to destroy him in TJE. So, to me, it's not bad writing. It actually fits in with what we know about the HGs.

[Kalbear]

So, to me, it's not bad writing. It actually fits in with what we know about the HGs.

Okay, let me get this straight.

The gods are rising up because Kellhus is fighting against the status quo. Despite, ya know, keeping the caste system entirely intact, keeping almost every single power structure exactly as it was before, etc - he's destroying the status quo. So at least one god is going to oppose him, and they're doing so very directly - giving its followers supernatural powers that haven't been seen in any real way before, hiding from Kellhus' sight without him being able to detect it, etc.

So why the fuck didn't the gods rise up against the Consult and the No-God? I mean, Kellhus isn't wiping out all of their believers. He isn't singlehandedly obliterating all forms of life that can worship. He's not even changing the status quo much; Inri Senjenus did a hell of a lot more to knock over the apple cart. But even that - are you telling me that these gods are awakening because of a false prophet, but they're totally down with the obliteration of the human race?

And Scot, in the book they state that Yatwer's worship has never been greater than it is now. So if Kellhus is cutting into their slice of the pie, they have a funny way of demonstrating as such.

[Shryke]

We lack the information to make any of the assumptions you are.

[Paxter]

So why the fuck didn't the gods rise up against the Consult and the No-God? I mean, Kellhus isn't wiping out all of their believers. He isn't singlehandedly obliterating all forms of life that can worship. He's not even changing the status quo much; Inri Senjenus did a hell of a lot more to knock over the apple cart. But even that - are you telling me that these gods are awakening because of a false prophet, but they're totally down with the obliteration of the human race?

Maybe Yatwer and the other HG's see that Kellhus is bound to become the No-God and thus aren't "totally down with the obliteration of the human race" at all. Perhaps they are trying to guard against another killing-spree from Mog-Pharau and the Sranc after they were relatively inactive during the Nameless War (i.e. they may have learnt from previous mistakes). Or maybe they were active during the Nameless War and we don't know about it. As Shryke says, it is very difficult to have a meaningful discussion on this topic because we lack information as to the nature/motivations/past actions of the HGs.

As for Inri Sejenus, we don't actually know whether or not the HGs intervened. Perhaps they didn't care about the rise of Inrithism, because the HGs are still seen by the Inrithi as "indispensable to eternal life in the Outside" (i.e. Inrithism = just as much power for the HGs).

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

It is mentioned somewhere - I don't remember if it was in actual book or by Scott online - that gods are unable to see No-God and the Consult, so as far as they are concerned lots of their worshippers in the North just vanished in some inexplicable catastrophe. It raises intriguing possibility that gods aren't really sentient as we are, but operate by different rules. (Or perhaps they just don't care very much). It is perhaps stranger that Hundred Gods didn't do anything against rise of Fanimry which surely was stealing their worshippers, but then, by time of PoN they didn't have to. Events were already going the way they wanted them to.

[Paxter]

It is perhaps stranger that Hundred Gods didn't do anything against rise of Fanimry which surely was stealing their worshippers

Maybe the Psukhe was just too strong, and the HGs weren't smart enough to overcome it (whereas Moe was smart enough - through his sons Kellhus, Maitha and the TTT he was able to help unite the Three Seas under the Aspect-Emperor and the Thousand Temples).

[lokisnow]

le gran unifying theory and totalizing statement:

the gods didn't do anything about the No God back in the day because he/it wasn't created back in the day, the no-god was created in the present day and the Gods (or maybe Kellhus') response was to send it back in time to a point when men had access to the weapon that could kill it. :) in order to stop the second apocalypse, they've got to start the first one. and along the way back in time (cue back to the future theme song) Kellhus (if it's him translating time and space) drops by various eras to enlighten Fanim, Inri and Anasurimbor Celmomas with a couple handy dandy visions. What comes after determines what comes before, up is down, right is left, dogs and cats living together.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

Cause a skin spy would have a horribly difficult time breaking away from the plush stadium seating and the canvas tent material. Really, that's how they should have defeated Sarcellus before; cover them all with tents. Problem solved!

I didn't say it was impossible to escape just more difficult. As to the "stadium seating" well if Kellhus can't see the individual he can't ID them as a skin spy. From my reading of that scene he floats around the tent looking at everyone. An open field would make it easier for someone to simply hide in the throng. Thats more difficult to do in the Umbilicus.

And Scot, in the book they state that Yatwer's worship has never been greater than it is now. So if Kellhus is cutting into their slice of the pie, they have a funny way of demonstrating as such.

Maybe its a zero sum game? There's only so much belief that can pass to the outside and as people flock to Kellhus it's cutting into Yatwer's flow. I think Shryke is correct we don't have enough information to know for certian what's going on yet.