FMLA: Once again America is rather behind the times

[denstorebog]

I'd like 12weeks of paid leave myself. I don't see anyone lining up to pay for mine

No, I also don't see you being breastfed or nursed (and I don't want to).

Doesn't answer the question. Can it be shown that leave, paid by money taken from others, is required for children to be well-adjusted and healthy?

A lot of things can't be shown. This isn't about quantifiable results or value for your money, it's about making life more tolerable for us all until we die.

[Shryke]

"Paid for by others" is bullshit. You pay for other peoples stuff all the time. Willingly and otherwise. So unless your relocating to a deserted island, you can kindly stfu cause your mooching as much as anyone else in this world.

As for your other "point", children can be healthy and well-adjusted under much worse circumstances then we already provide for them. We do better though. And one of the reasons (the selfish one I'm using to try and get through your thick skull) is that the better adjusted and healthier children are, the better off we are as a society.

The health (both mental and physical) and prosperity of the other people in society directly benefit you.

[potsherds]

"Paid for by others" is bullshit. You pay for other peoples stuff all the time. Willingly and otherwise. So unless your relocating to a deserted island, you can kindly stfu cause your mooching as much as anyone else in this world.

As for your other "point", children can be healthy and well-adjusted under much worse circumstances then we already provide for them. We do better though. And one of the reasons (the selfish one I'm using to try and get through your thick skull) is that the better adjusted and healthier children are, the better off we are as a society.

The health (both mental and physical) and prosperity of the other people in society directly benefit you.

Word.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

A lot of things can't be shown. This isn't about quantifiable results or value for your money, it's about making life more tolerable for us all until we die.

Actually, its about making life more tolerable for new parents, at the expense of making it less tolerable for everyone else. New parents get free money out of the pocketbooks of those who are producing.

"Paid for by others" is bullshit. You pay for other peoples stuff all the time. Willingly and otherwise.

Yes, and you and I have gone over exactly what my position is on this.

As for your other "point", children can be healthy and well-adjusted under much worse circumstances then we already provide for them. We do better though. And one of the reasons (the selfish one I'm using to try and get through your thick skull) is that the better adjusted and healthier children are, the better off we are as a society.

And the poorer we are because our money is being taken to give to other people, the worse off we are. The less investment that is being made because that money is being directed to those who are adding mouths to feed, the worse off we are.

[Shryke]

Actually, its about making life more tolerable for new parents, at the expense of making it less tolerable for everyone else. New parents get free money out of the pocketbooks of those who are producing.

Yes, and you and I have gone over exactly what my position is on this.

Then kindly get the fuck off the internet, move to a deserted pacific island and live your dream. Till then, your just a mooching hypocrite.

And the poorer we are because our money is being taken to give to other people, the worse off we are. The less investment that is being made because that money is being directed to those who are adding mouths to feed, the worse off we are.

Have we forgotten the French Revolution already? Turns out, it's better to keep people not poor and desperate to the point where they come and kill you for your stuff.

[Lupigis]

I just want to know: what are the more liberal countries' policies on self-employed people like me? Do they also get months off paid for by the state? Or do they have to work like I do?

Did you get an answer to this?

In case you didn't, I'll try to answer how it would work in Sweden. I'm not quite sure exactly what it means to be an "self-employed" in the USA but I'm assuming that you have your own company, that your company pays you a wage and that you pay income tax based on that wage.

In that case, yes, you would get the same benefits as someone who works at another company with the same wage as you.

The major problem for the self employed is that even if they get the money it's often very bad for business just to close down for a long period. No solution to that, I'm afraid

[CloudFlare]

The major problem for the self employed is that even if they get the money it's often very bad for business just to close down for a long period. No solution to that, I'm afraid

That's similar to the problem in corporate America. In most of the companies I've worked at, when someone announces she's pregnant, everyone congratulates her... but groans silently as well. Since the FMLA period is short management rarely covers the position with an extra body. Everyone gets to "pitch in" and cover for the mother to be. People could deal with this, but in my experience it's 50-50 that the mom takes all the time off allowed by law, then quits. And of course, management by law can't ask if she's going to quit.

[Guest thebadlady]

Tormund, aren't you afraid that the illegals are going to take over if our folk don't breed? I've noticed people with your attitude have a *thing* where illegals = the great satan.

[The Iceman of the North]

I just want to know: what are the more liberal countries' policies on self-employed people like me? Do they also get months off paid for by the state? Or do they have to work like I do?

You already got some answers, but as it's not the employer that pay for the leave, self-employed people have the same rights as employed in Norway. Here, you'd get paid based on the average taxable 'personal' income over the past three years.

As for the problem Lupigis mentioned about shutting down the business for so long, I guess it depends on what profession you are in. With up to a year of leave, it's usually no problem getting a replacement for employees on leave (provided they give proper advance notice).

[TrackerNeil]

I feel that in this thread there's alot of "should" going on. Families who have babies should have had x months' savings, shouldn't expect any government assistance in terms of leave, etc., etc. That's great in an ideological sense, I suppose, but I prefer to base policy on what actually happens to most people. But to each his/her own.

[Maltaran]

I'd like 12weeks of paid leave myself. I don't see anyone lining up to pay for mine.

Move to Sweden.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I was thinking about this earlier. When I made a lot less money, I was less inclined to feel good about social programs and taxes and "paying for others"

Now that I make a livable wage, I am a lot more inclined to agree to tax increases for the benefit of society. I would think this would be the case in general, but obvious I am the exception.

[denstorebog]

Yes, and you and I have gone over exactly what my position is on this.

Basically, your argument seems to be:

1) I don't want to pay for other peoples' babies

2) I don't want to have my benefits paid by others, but I have no choice, so oh well, I'll just have to live with that somehow.

Somehow I don't think you're losing as much sleep over 2 as you might want us to think, but if you do, why not just regard it as if the two cancel each other out? That way, you'll be able to feel that you get something back for the money you invest in other people's lives, AND you'll be able to live with yourself getting free benefits all the time from other peoples' tax money. Why, you might even say that you give some and you get some and it all adds up.

[Altherion]

Have we forgotten the French Revolution already? Turns out, it's better to keep people not poor and desperate to the point where they come and kill you for your stuff.

:lol:

I assure you, the various revolutions have not been forgotten so our government does a fairly decent job of keeping the number of people desperate enough to revolt well below the point where they can accomplish anything.

Tormund's question regarding why new parents deserve a greater share of society's resources is not unreasonable. In Europe, the answer is fairly obvious: because the fertility rate is well below replacement and the government would like to encourage people to have children. The costs to both businesses and taxpayers are considerable, but the effects of having a population wherein the old outnumber the young by a substantial amount would probably be worse. In the US, the answer is not so obvious which is why this idea hasn't gotten very far yet.

[Shryke]

I was thinking about this earlier. When I made a lot less money, I was less inclined to feel good about social programs and taxes and "paying for others"

Now that I make a livable wage, I am a lot more inclined to agree to tax increases for the benefit of society. I would think this would be the case in general, but obvious I am the exception.

I think, if nothing else, California has just proven that letting people decide for themselves whether they should pay more in taxes or not results in massive failure.

Tormund's question regarding why new parents deserve a greater share of society's resources is not unreasonable. In Europe, the answer is fairly obvious: because the fertility rate is well below replacement and the government would like to encourage people to have children. The costs to both businesses and taxpayers are considerable, but the effects of having a population wherein the old outnumber the young by a substantial amount would probably be worse. In the US, the answer is not so obvious which is why this idea hasn't gotten very far yet.

Nobody uses that reasoning though. It's not birthrate, it's just ... compassion. Enlightened Self-Interest. A ton of other things too.

We help others in society because it's "the right thing to do" and because, in the end, it always pays itself back in lower crime rates and better products and all the other things that make life great.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Apologies everyone, I know I've been the bone of contention in the thread, and I was uanble to access the board for a bit there. I'll try to give your reponses to me due attention in a bit.

[QuietColours]

Balefont is correct - there are a lot of companies offering generous paid leave and extended unpaid leave (with some

I wish that those of you who say "savings may not be realistic" would really look at Rhelle's post. It's all about money management. Not money. There are people making six figures living paycheck to paycheck, and people earning very small salaries who manage to save a bundle. Savings isn't magic, and it doesn't happen magically. It happens because you take a little bit out of your paycheck every time, and sock it away.

If you can't do that, you either have very little financial discipline, or your costs are out of whack with your income (living above your means).

My husband and I save quite a bit, and have a few months back-up in savings. We will probably get to the 8-month point eventually. Why don't we have it now? Because we're both young and straight out of school. I've only had my first real job for a couple of months, and we're also aggressively paying down our student loans. Even in grad school I always saved 10% of my salary, but $40 a month isn't a whole lot.

Quite a few people having children are in a similar position, simply because they're young. In your twenties is a very good time to have kids biologically. If I were expecting a child now--or even in the next nine months--my ability to take even unpaid leave would be entirely dependent on if I could qualify for a hardship deferral on my student loans. Fiscally, I'm doing all the right things, but I simply haven't had time to get to that level yet. And I'm sure I'm far from the only one. This is why (among other reasons) we've chosen not to have children yet. However, I'm acutely aware that birth control isn't 100% perfect and this is a source of stress. I'm glad to know I won't lose my job automatically if I get pregnant--although that I should have to have wondered in the first place rather irks. Knowing I could get even six weeks of paid leave would be relief now--it would a lifeline if I were actually pregnant.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Then kindly get the fuck off the internet, move to a deserted pacific island and live your dream. Till then, your just a mooching hypocrite.

This response is so tired and weak I'm surprized it survives you dragging it out of its cage again. If someone breaks my legs, and then hands me a pair of crutches, it is not hypocrisy to use the crutches. No one argues that I should go about on broken legs because I am in principal, opposed to leg-breaking.

Have we forgotten the French Revolution already? Turns out, it's better to keep people not poor and desperate to the point where they come and kill you for your stuff.

Do we regularly see revolutions when people are denied their god-given right to paid maternity leave? Gimme a break man.

Tormund, aren't you afraid that the illegals are going to take over if our folk don't breed? I've noticed people with your attitude have a *thing* where illegals = the great satan.

Uhhh.....WTF? "Our folk"? Are you also a Cherokee-Scot-Irish? I do know that when my European ancestors showed up they outnumbered my native ancestors. Perhaps it's because the Cherokee didn't have paid maternity leave.

And "My attitudue"? Anarchism? When you don't believe in the state, it's pretty hard for someone to be an "illegal". How many anarchists have you met?

I feel that in this thread there's alot of "should" going on. Families who have babies should have had x months' savings, shouldn't expect any government assistance in terms of leave, etc., etc. That's great in an ideological sense, I suppose, but I prefer to base policy on what actually happens to most people. But to each his/her own.

People having to rely on savings and not getting a government subsidy is what happens in the US. We seem to be outbreeding Europe regardless of this.

Move to Sweden.

Brrr! I like my 120 degree summer days!

Somehow I don't think you're losing as much sleep over 2 as you might want us to think, but if you do, why not just regard it as if the two cancel each other out? That way, you'll be able to feel that you get something back for the money you invest in other people's lives, AND you'll be able to live with yourself getting free benefits all the time from other peoples' tax money. Why, you might even say that you give some and you get some and it all adds up.

The board would get boring if I did that. It isn't so much taking and the giving of services that bugs me so much as the coersion. See pretty much any political topic I've ever posted in for lenghty posts on that subject.

[Guest thebadlady]

Sorry. Most people who get pissy about 'paying for other people's babies' expect the whites to outbreed the rest. I think we should pay people to not have babies, like a farm subsity where the farmer gets paid to leave his field fallow. Uteri should be paid to be fallow too.

So you don't want to pay for anything? Roads, schools, bridges...shit like that? The only anarchists I met were pimply emo virgins and I couldn't take them seriously.

[Shryke]

This response is so tired and weak I'm surprized it survives you dragging it out of its cage again. If someone breaks my legs, and then hands me a pair of crutches, it is not hypocrisy to use the crutches. No one argues that I should go about on broken legs because I am in principal, opposed to leg-breaking.

Except this goes FAR FAR FAR beyond breaking your legs. Our entire way of life is predicated on a concept you apparently abhor.

Do we regularly see revolutions when people are denied their god-given right to paid maternity leave? Gimme a break man.

Except you've been trying to say that not taking peoples money in taxes and such would make society better as a whole. The truth is, you've got to support the rest of society or the very system your life depends on falls apart. The more productive and healthy and well adjusted those around you are, the better you do.