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Werthead

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First off:

Do we have any further information on which kings wielded Blackfyre and Dark Sister?

At the moment my notes list only Aegon I and Maegor I as definitely wielding Blackfyre. We know Aegon IV gave Daemon Blackfyre the sword, but not if he used it before then, and it is unknown if Maelys wielded it in the War of the Ninepenny Kings (presumably not, as Barristan would have taken it back).

It would make sense from what I can see that all the more martial kings of Westeros would wield it, such as Daeron I, but there is no definitive info on whether they did or not. Aegon II would also likely have wielded it (since he also wore Aegon I's crown, presumably to affirm a link between him and the first Aegon to bolster his claim to the crown) but that is obviously guesswork and unsuitable for the wiki.

As for Dark Sister I've got Visenya and Bloodraven definitely wielding it. I have a hazy memory of Aemon the Dragonknight also wielding it, but I'll have to double-check that. Do we know of any other Targs who used it?

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Here's another one:

Do we know when Aegon IV and Naerys were married? I'm assuming it was quite young and fairly early, since Aemon was old enough to fight in the Young Dragon's wars in Dorne. Does that then mean that Daena is the first of Aegon's nine 'Great Mistresses' since Aegon knocked her up later on? I'm also guessing that the 'Great Bastards' were so-named because they were born of the Great Mistresses, so Daena as Daemon's mother would have been in the count.

On a related note, the other mistresses I have listed are Barba Bracken (5), Mylessa Blackwood (6) and Serenai of Lys (9). Do we know of any others?

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On a related note, the other mistresses I have listed are Barba Bracken (5), Mylessa Blackwood (6) and Serenai of Lys (9). Do we know of any others?

We do.

1. Falena Stokeworth

2. Merry Meg

3. Cassella Vaith

4. Bellegere Otherys, the Black Pearl of Braavos

5. Barba Bracken

6. Mysella (Missy) Blackwood

7. Bethany Bracken

8. Jeyne Lothston

9. Serenei of Lys

So Daena wasn't a mistress at all, that was a furtive tryst with King Baelor's wife...illicit, treasonous, and secret; far from an openly acknowledged relationship (at least not until after Baelor was dead). "Great bastards" would mean 'bastards born of highborn noblewomen', I should think. Merry Meg may have born the Unworthy some children, but if she was a tavern wench or something they would have been lesser bastards.

If so, Edric Storm would be Robert's only great bastard, Gendry and Mya Stone and the rest would not. That would mean that there was a significant difference in status between Serenei of Lys (who was of the blood of Old Valyria, iirc) and Bellegere Otherys...who would have bore Aegon children and founded the line of Black Pearls continuing down to the one Arya sold some shellfish to.

As to Blackfyre, my impression is that it was the sword of every Targaryen king from Aegon I through to Aegon IV (though some probably wouldn't have done much with it). The Dragonknight definitely used Dark Sister, it was mentioned in tSS.

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I'd call Blackfyre the sword of the Targaryen kings until Aegon IV handed it off to Daemon. They all would have owned it, presumably (though I suppose there's the amusing possibility that Rhaenyra snatched it as part of her claim to being her father's successor), even if they did not use it for anything more than ceremonial occasions (except Baelor, whom I'm pretty sure would never have used it for any purpose whatsoever. Though this now brings to mind the question of just what happens to Blackfyre when Daeron is murdered.... hrm...)

The date of Aegon's marriage to Naerys has not been published as of yet. And I agree with OiL regarding the Great Bastards -- they are the children by highborn women, as opposed to the children of lowborn women, who are just regular sorts of bastards. Daemon Blackfyre is a Great Bastard, though his mother is not considered a mistress, while Merry Meg's kids (not a published bit of info) are just plain bastards despite her having been a mistress.

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Though this now brings to mind the question of just what happens to Blackfyre when Daeron is murdered.... hrm...

Blackfyre's probably playing valyrian poker with Dark Sister, Brightroar & the Just Maid, somewere beyond the sea :drunk:

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Well, maybe, but we know that after Daeron I is murdered while campaigning in Dorne, the sword is in Aegon IV's hands in time to hand it to Daemon. Given the Young Dragon was a martial sort of king, it seems probable he had Blackfyre with him during his campaign. So did the Dornish take it, along with his body, and then return it to King's Landing at some point? Did Daeron leave it behind for some obscure reason? That sort of thing. (Mostly it comes to mind since our MUSH is set during that time period, and I've never bothered to think about the mechanics of what happens with Blackfyre. Or, indeed, Dark Sister... Hrm. It must be restored to the Targaryens, anyways. Perhaps Baelor negotiates it before freeing Aemon.)

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There are too much possibilities about Blackfyre ; and no clues.

About Dark Sister, Maekar might have seize it from Bloodraven when he was arrested, after this, there are a lot of possibilities :

- Maybe Egg gave it back to Bloodraven when he sent him to the Wall.

- Maybe Dark Sister (or the two Targaryan's sword) was/were lost in Summerhall.

- Maybe it was lost later... probably before Robert's rebellion, otherwise, Rhaegar probably used it...

We could have answers in the next Dunk & Egg stories.

But all of this stuff is just speculation ; nothing to do with an encyclopedic wiki omho

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All interesting stuff.

So we know for sure that Daeron was murdered and didn't just die in battle? Do we have more info on this or is it another 'R(TWB)AFO'?

I was more concerned with Blackfyre's eventual fate rather than it's gymnastics during the Young Dragon's war, although that is something I hadn't considered before.

Let's break it down:

Daemon Blackfyre was born after Daena was locked in the Maidenvault in 161, when Baelor became king and annulled their marriage. The Princesses were in the tower for all ten years of Baelor's reign before being released by Viserys II, I believe. Aegon IV gives Daemon Blackfyre when he is twelve and acknowledges him, which I believe is really only doable when he becomes king (172). So Daemon Blackfyre can be born any time from 161 to 171 with no problem at all. That puts his 12th birthday and the possession of Blackfyre a comfortable time after Daeron I's death in Dorne (161), so there's plenty of time for things to happen and Blackfyre to be recovered from Dorne.

That reminds me I need to track down the thread I did about the dragon eggs last year, as there was some good stuff there (although again maybe too much conjecture to be eligible for the wiki).

But all of this stuff is just speculation ; nothing to do with an encyclopedic wiki omho

If there's going to be a Lostpedia-style 'theories' section for each entry, it could all go in there. That said, ASoIaF isn't quite as based around mysteries and enigmas as Lost is, and there may not be as much of a need for it.

We could have answers in the next Dunk & Egg stories.

Or indeed in ADWD:

SPOILER: ADWD
When the Golden Company (aka Team Bittersteel) show up we may get some hints as to the fate of Blackfyre, at the very least. Hell, maybe they simply still have it?
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So we know for sure that Daeron was murdered and didn't just die in battle? Do we have more info on this or is it another 'R(TWB)AFO'?

I don't know what exacty is a 'R(TWB)AFO', but we don't know for sure that Daeron was murdered. All we know is that he died in Dorne in 161

Daemon Blackfyre was born after Daena was locked in the Maidenvault in 161, when Baelor became king and annulled their marriage. The Princesses were in the tower for all ten years of Baelor's reign before being released by Viserys II, I believe. Aegon IV gives Daemon Blackfyre when he is twelve and acknowledges him, which I believe is really only doable when he becomes king (172). So Daemon Blackfyre can be born any time from 161 to 171 with no problem at all. That puts his 12th birthday and the possession of Blackfyre a comfortable time after Daeron I's death in Dorne (161), so there's plenty of time for things to happen and Blackfyre to be recovered from Dorne.

More exactly, Daemon Blackfyre is born in 170.

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I don't know what exacty is a 'R(TWB)AFO', but we don't know for sure that Daeron was murdered. All we know is that he died in Dorne in 161

"Read (The World Book) And Find Out", a reference to the world book that Ran and Linda are writing with GRRM. I'm guessing that is where Ran is getting all these tidbits from ;) So if Ran says that Daeron was assassinated, I'm guessing that is the word from on high (unless it's just something from the MUSH, in which case it isn't).

More exactly, Daemon Blackfyre is born in 170.

Is that 100%? He is 39 when he dies in THK which is set in 209, but THK is set early in the year (before the Great Spring Sickness sweeps the continent) and his 40th birthday could have been later in the year, which would put his potential birth-year as 169.

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Err... yeah, that's from on high. And from awhile ago, actually, so it's entirely possible that GRRM's changed his mind as to the mode of Daeron's death in the interim. ;) But at one point, at least, yes, he was murdered. Not something for the wiki.

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"Is that 100%? He is 39 when he dies in THK which is set in 209, but THK is set early in the year (before the Great Spring Sickness sweeps the continent) and his 40th birthday could have been later in the year, which would put his potential birth-year as 169.

Euh... yes

But we're talking about Daemon not Daeron >_<

Damned Targs with all that names... :tantrum:

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Euh... yes

But we're talking about Daemon not Daeron >_<

Damned Targs with all that names... :tantrum:

Oh yeah, common problem. I imagine that Aegon V had problems there with his son.

"I'm calling him Duncan."

"Sounds too ordinary. How about Duncaen?"

"No."

"Oh, go on."

"No."

And I actually remember that date was well. That's from the RPG isn't it?

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And I actually remember that date was well. That's from the RPG isn't it?

If my memory is good, it come from the descriptions GRRM made to Amok ; he described Daemon Blackfyre as a 26 y.o. man at the time of his death ; he died at the Battle of the Redgrass Field who took place in 196, so... :thumbsup:

GRRM also confirmed it in a mail to the Dabel Brothers. cf SSM : http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/...Great_Bastards/

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Excellent stuff.

Another thought: do we have more info on why Maegor took the crown from Aenys rather than it passing directly to Jaehaerys? Usurping or the simple fact that the realm was at war and needed a firm hand rather than a young boy's?

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Another thought: do we have more info on why Maegor took the crown from Aenys rather than it passing directly to Jaehaerys? Usurping or the simple fact that the realm was at war and needed a firm hand rather than a young boy's?

My thought is that the Targaryens were coming from a very different political and social background than their Westerosi subjects. Perhaps Maegor was next in line under Valyrian succession rules...or maybe the Valyrians didn't even have succession rules in the same sense as Westerosi. Maybe the custom of a single person ruling the entire family and it's holdings wasn't followed in Valyria, and they had to adapt themselves to that sort of autocratic rule. In any event, avoiding potential confusion may have been the reason behind discontinuing polygamy after Maegor's reign.

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My thought is that the Targaryens were coming from a very different political and social background than their Westerosi subjects. Perhaps Maegor was next in line under Valyrian succession rules...or maybe the Valyrians didn't even have succession rules in the same sense as Westerosi. Maybe the custom of a single person ruling the entire family and it's holdings wasn't followed in Valyria, and they had to adapt themselves to that sort of autocratic rule. In any event, avoiding potential confusion may have been the reason behind discontinuing polygamy after Maegor's reign.

Interesting. We know Valyria was ruled by the Lords Freeholder rather than a king/emperor, suggesting a Roman-esque situation where heirs were appointed rather than automatically being the eldest child/son. This would also explain the confusion over the Rhaenyra/Aegon II succession, as it probably never occurred to Rhaenyra that simply being chosen to succeed Viserys I wasn't enough to overcome the traditional laws of Westeros.

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Maegor was a son of Aegon the Conqueror while Jaehaerys was 'just' a grandson. So Maegor had a more direct link to the founder of the kingdom.

The old Germanic kingdom of the Vandals had the same way of handling the succession (as has nowadays Saudi Arabia).

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  • 1 month later...

I've got a little question for the big Ran.

Who exactly rules Saltpans at this time ?

It is said on the Citadel that House Hawick rulez Saltpans House Hawick.

House Hawick is also listed on the WOIAF as the leading house of Saltpans : Here

But

In AFFC's appendix, ser Quincy Cox of house Cox is listed as "master of Saltpans" : Here, on La GDN

It's the same on TOTH : Here

House Cox is not listed in WOIAF nor in the Citadel.

I think informations about house Hawick are from the role playing game because int he books, only Bellena Hawick, wife of a Frey, appear. I can be wrong. But if it's the case, there's an incoherence.

Was House Hawick leading Saltpans a long time ago & Knightly house Cox now ?

Is there several houses at Saltpan, like in Gulltown (cf SSM from your correspondance with Mr Martin )

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