Syrio Forel =/= Jaquen

[SFDanny]

My problem with that is that if Syrio had him knocked unconscious.. why not just kill him?

It's a valid point, but what I was saying was the lack of injuries apparent when we next see Trant are indicative of nothing. We can argue what Syrio would or would not have done if he had Trant unconcious or helpless, but that is another discussion. It is not enough to dismiss the "Syrio is victorious and escapes" scenario to note the lack of injuries Sansa sees on Trant a month or so after they fight.

Now if I got to pick, I'd want Syrio to have died defending Arya. It makes for a great scene in the story, and if Martin brings him back he risks lessening the power of that scene. But that's just my personal preference, and I don't know where Martin's going with the story. Perhaps he could bring him back in a way that makes sense, but knowing what we know now, I'm fine with Syrio being dead.

As I've said in other threads on this topic, the one scenario that gives me pause is around how Martin gets Arya back to Westeros. There are plenty of ways for him to make this happen, but the Syrio/Braavos connection could be one of them. Of course, that doesn't mean Syrio has to be alive for him to be a catalyst in moving Arya. It could be an encounter of Arya with something or someone connected to Syrio that starts her down that road. Or it could just be she grows up to be a Faceless Man and goes on a mission for the Kindly Man to kill Jon/Sansa/or Catelyn. Who knows?

[Errant Bard]

Of course, that doesn't mean Syrio has to be alive for him to be a catalyst in moving Arya. It could be an encounter of Arya with something or someone connected to Syrio that starts her down that road.

Wow, wouldn't that suck if what got her moving was some hint about a swordsmaster she thinks dead, instead of either a duty (appealing to her rational side, no feeling involved), her family (who she thinks is mostly dead, too, but would be way more appropriate for feelings to show) or her revenge. Actually, wouldn't that suck if instead of using the many possibilities with living characters that would actually move the plot forwards, GRRM resurrected an useless character just for the sake of bloat? There's only two books after ADWD.

[Aplomb]

My problem with that is that if Syrio had him knocked unconscious.. why not just kill him?

Another thing to consider: There's no need that Syrio prevail over Trant, or be the one who ran away. It may well have been Trant who broke off the fight.

He was under no orders to kill or capture Syrio (it's possible Cersei never even heard of Syrio until after the fight), he was the one who ordered the Lannister red shirts to kill Syrio but only after Syrio got in the way of his actual objective. He was under direct orders to take Arya into custody, and faced Cersei's wrath if he didn't. At some point after Arya ran away, as he is getting tired and out of wind from futilely swinging at and missing this annoying dodging guy, he's going to realize he's only wasting time as his true object flees further and further away.

So he backs out of the room to find some guards to get the word out that Arya's fled, and Syrio (or the FM playing Syrio) either stands honorably triumphant in the center of the room having caused his opponent to withdraw (Syrio having never run), or lands ineffectual blows on Trant's hard armor until Trant runs into a sizeable force of guards that forces Syrio to withdraw (if he's an FM under no real "no running" rule).

This would give Trant an excuse that Cersei would accept even if she didn't like it: "this crazy ninja guy killed the Lannister guards in about five seconds and allowed Arya to escape; I would have killed him right there but he was so skilled at dodging that it would take time and I knew you would want me instead to go after Arya immediately, and settle his hash later."

[Errant Bard]

This would give Trant an excuse that Cersei would accept even if she didn't like it: "this crazy ninja guy killed the Lannister guards in about five seconds and allowed Arya to escape; I would have killed him right there but he was so skilled at dodging that it would take time and I knew you would want me instead to go after Arya immediately, and settle his hash later."

Yeah, except it disregards the fact that noone went after Arya.

[Aplomb]

Yeah, except it disregards the fact that noone went after Arya.

Are you serious? Once the word got out everyone was after Arya. She was just good at sticking to the shadows and avoiding attention from Gold Cloaks and the like, and looked nothing like what people who didn't know her expected to look (and she kept a very low profile in KL to begin with so few nobles and fewer Lannister guards and Gold Cloaks knew her anyway). Remember, this is the girl even Tommen and Myrcella didn't recognize when she was dirty and wearing common clothes. She only got "caught" when she for the first time since fleeing acted in a highly public and conspicuous manner and luckily Yoren was the first to notice.

Are you seriously suggesting that no matter what happened (Trant kills Syrio, Trant runs away from Syrio, Syrio knocks Trant unconsious) that he didn't get the word out as soon as he could and there wasn't an APB on her?

[SFDanny]

Yeah, except it disregards the fact that noone went after Arya.

How do you know that, EB? No one caught Arya, but I don't think we know if anyone went after her.

As to your other post, I trust Martin to use whatever skill he possesses to write a story that doesn't suck. Whatever the reason Arya comes back to Westeros, I'm sure it will work well in the story, and that includes if there is a Syrio connection to her actions.

Just what living characters do you think are headed for Braavos anytime soon?

[Errant Bard]

Are you seriously suggesting that no matter what happened (Trant kills Syrio, Trant runs away from Syrio, Syrio knocks Trant unconsious) that he didn't get the word out as soon as he could and there wasn't an APB on her?

How do you know that, EB? No one caught Arya, but I don't think we know if anyone went after her.

I wasn't saying that there were not people looking for her eventually. I don't know what's an APB, but we know the Lannisters were looking for her (iirc Tyrion and Cersei comment about it), even setting traps to get her (the wind witch).

I was saying that no people went for her immediately. Surely that's the logical consequence of "Trant breaks the fight with Syrio to go after Arya right away and Syrio lets him go", and it doesn't happen. She can cross the whole Red Keep, go to the Tower of the Hand, open chests, go get a horse, kill someone after a little chat, and there is noone for her, behind or waiting for her in the very obvious places she could pop up.

Just what living characters do you think are headed for Braavos anytime soon?

Why "headed"? Isn't that rather narrow to think Arya can only leave Braavos after meeting a newcomer in town? Another miracle encounter wouldn't sit that well with me, there will come a moment where Arya will have to move without DEM prodding her this way and that.

This being said, who could conceivably come who would be relevant to the overarching plot, even if I don't like the idea? Off the top of my head:

• Brienne, after all, she is looking for her and she knows in what direction she took off
  
• Quentyn Martell, we know he's somewhere in the free cities and travelling to meet a certain person.
  
• Dany, she lived there, and she might want to treat with the Iron Bank and their FM goons
  
• A Hightower goon, on his way to or from where Lynesse is
  
• Aurane Waters
  
• Sallador Saan
  
• Edric Storm (can't remember where Davos sent him)
  
• A LF emissary looking to hire a FM
  

Almost anyone makes more sense than someone whose only use is to be an Obiwan without any link to the plots.

[Aplomb]

I was saying that no people went for her immediately. Surely that's the logical consequence of "Trant breaks the fight with Syrio to go after Arya right away and Syrio lets him go", and it doesn't happen. She can cross the whole Red Keep, go to the Tower of the Hand, open chests, go get a horse, kill someone after a little chat, and there is noone for her, behind or waiting for her in the very obvious places she could pop up.

I'm really confused at what your point is. I take it you believe Trant killed Syrio after a fight. What do you think he did next, considering his crucial, White Cloak level of importance task was to capture Arya? I can't see how he did anything else other than immediately tell people she slipped away, have them pass the word, and start organizing a search. Apparently, you think after killing Syrio Trant took a nap, or something? I think it's more likely that despite his efforts to get word out and begin a search, because they don't have walkie talkies word can only spread so fast among people fighting and dying in a huge complex castle, and Arya was just good at hiding and looking non-descript when it was necessary for her to be visible (she has a whole scene about walking slowly and not attracting attention).

My point is as far as the book is concerned, the scenario where Trant kills Syrio then begins a search is no more or less likely than a scenario where Trant fights Syrio, realizes he has a more important entrusted task than hanging around and wasting time killing this guy, and withdraws so he can begin a search. Both could take as long or be as brief as you care to imagine it (assuming you give Arya a minimal amount of time to get out of his eyesight and round a few corners first).

You seem to have a problem with Trant's ability to find and/or spread the word about Arya, but that same problem exists to the exact same extent whether Trant fights for awhile and then kills Syrio and then looks for Arya, or fights for awhile before he abandons the fight and then looks for Arya. Is there anything about Trant's failure to find Arya that makes one scenario more likely than another? I think not, unless I am missing your point of course.

[Shemy]

He was under no orders to kill or capture Syrio (it's possible Cersei never even heard of Syrio until after the fight), he was the one who ordered the Lannister red shirts to kill Syrio but only after Syrio got in the way of his actual objective. He was under direct orders to take Arya into custody, and faced Cersei's wrath if he didn't. At some point after Arya ran away, as he is getting tired and out of wind from futilely swinging at and missing this annoying dodging guy, he's going to realize he's only wasting time as his true object flees further and further away.

I think being a member of the Kingsguard againt an old retired water dancer is enough to make him want to stay to finish. Syrio living is an insult to Trant considering the situation Syrio was facing.

And again, this is pure 200% speculation. If this had happened, Martin would have left clues for us to consider this might have happened.

He has not left any clues. This is nothing more than your imagination working overtime to make a plausible story of Syrio living.

Martin would be a pretty poor author if suddenly Syrio popped up and was like " OH YEA ABOUT THAT TRANT FIGHT..."

So he backs out of the room to find some guards to get the word out that Arya's fled, and Syrio (or the FM playing Syrio) either stands honorably triumphant in the center of the room having caused his opponent to withdraw (Syrio having never run), or lands ineffectual blows on Trant's hard armor until Trant runs into a sizeable force of guards that forces Syrio to withdraw (if he's an FM under no real "no running" rule).

Again. Pure speculation. Where is the proof in the book I ask? ;p.

This would give Trant an excuse that Cersei would accept even if she didn't like it: "this crazy ninja guy killed the Lannister guards in about five seconds and allowed Arya to escape; I would have killed him right there but he was so skilled at dodging that it would take time and I knew you would want me instead to go after Arya immediately, and settle his hash later."

I think that a Kingsguard member openly admitting to the queen that he could not kill an unarmed retired old dancer would be more embarrasing to say than anything and would suffer far more wrath considering his position.

[AvengingAryaFan]

I guess I have to accept that Syrio is dead.

When GRRM has a character as good as dead, but either doesn't confirm it or "confirms" it by a non-POV report, that character will return (i.e., the non-POV reports turn out to be false). Examples: Bran and Rickon; Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Pod (or so I expect, despite the fact that I can see no escape for them from unCat's unyielding sentence); Davos (reported hung from wall in Storm's End or White Harbor, don't remember which)); Sandor (both as good as dead AND reported falsely to be dead by the priest); and Gregor (or so I expect - he was reported dead to the Martells by Tywin, and also definitely seemed to be dying).

Conversely, characters die all the time when they hardly seem to be in jeopardy at all: Ned, Robb, Lady, Dontos, and (after Gregor was down) Oberyn Martell. Those characters were all allowed to be good and dead, not to be brought back (leaving aside divine intervention like for Beric and Cat - Qyburn's intervention wasn't divine). The less apparent the risk, the more likely death is to be quite final.

Thus, in order for GRRM to bring a character back from certain death, that character has to either be reported dead, or clearly be dying, or both. These requirements don't apply to Syrio. Syrio was merely in a spot of trouble. Sure, there was a risk of death if he didn't do some fast dancing; but when last we saw him, he was still on his feet and healthy. On top of that, Trant is a lousy knight (in the opinion of Barristan, who ought to know), while Syrio has just demonstrated nearly unparalleled speed and skill. A little jeopardy just isn't enough to warrant bringing back a character. The problem is, Syrio doesn't fit the mold of the characters that GRRM brings back: Syrio's chances are way too good, and he's too healthy. Being alive would just be too obvious, and, as Parris said, George doesn't do obvious. Therefore, I have to accept that he's dead.

[AvengingAryaFan]

It is well known that highborn children are very rarely killed, because they are useful as hostages and as a means to control their inheritances. Arya, upon the approach of Meryn Trant, is at risk of capture, not of death. Given that, doesn't anybody else find it odd that Syrio, who is merely a teacher hired by Ned a couple of months ago, is willing to fight a bunch of gold cloaks and Meryn Trant just to let her get away to an uncertain escape? And wouldn't it be even more odd if he was also, as many insist, perfectly content to lay his life down for her after she has already escaped?

The First Sword of Braavos does not run ... but he's a master of dancing.

[Errant Bard]

You seem to have a problem with Trant's ability to find and/or spread the word about Arya

I don't have a problem about that, I was reacting to a suggestion that Trant bowed out of the fight early and Syrio let him go. If this happens, Arya doesn't have much of a headstart, but we see no pursuit. The keyword here is "early", I do have a problem with Trant spreading the word while fighting a man who wants to delay him, but it's simple common sense, isn't it?

I actually mean the opposite of what you seem to think, that Trant can reasonably well spread the word and/or lead a successful chase and in that case the absence of immediate chase is at odds with the idea that Trant bowed out early and resumed the chase for Arya unimpeded.

[Aplomb]

I actually mean the opposite of what you seem to think, that Trant can reasonably well spread the word and/or lead a successful chase and in that case the absence of immediate chase is at odds with the idea that Trant bowed out early and resumed the chase for Arya unimpeded.

Well, we are kind of arguing over nothing. I'm not necessarily arguing Trant might have bowed out early in the sense of just a few moments, just early in the sense of giving up before he is able to kill Syrio. That could take quite awhile.

What with Syrio's slippery nature and the nature of luck, a fight to his death could take a minute, or five minutes, or ten minutes, or longer. And Trant getting winded, sensing futility, and finally wising up and realizing his true objective is slipping away could take a minute, or five minutes, or ten minutes, or longer. He'll continue fighting for a little while or a longer while, depending on how enraged and slow witted he his and how well Syrio is dancing away, but eventually he'll give up if he realizes he's likely not to land a killing blow.

The text is silent about what really happened, of course. And to my mind, one scenario is just as likely as another. I'm accused of making up a scenario where Trant gives up before killing Syrio because there's no indication of that in the text, but there is also no indication Trant killed Syrio. Arya left as both scenarios were equally possible to my mind, and nothing that comes later clears it up either way.

[Jon Targaryen]

It is not enough to dismiss the "Syrio is victorious and escapes" scenario to note the lack of injuries Sansa sees on Trant a month or so after they fight.

Has it been determined that a month or so passed between Eddard's fall from grace and when Joffrey takes Sansa out to the battlements?

[Szar]

There's just no way an unarmed (no, half a stick does not count as being armed) and unarmored man, even if he is a master fighter, can stand up to a trained knight in full armor with a sword. Really, if Syrio somehow survived, it ruins the realistic nature of the setting.

[Serc]

That "trained" knight was referred to as being horrible with a sword, and this "unarmoed man" had just dispatched 5 people in like 10 seconds with a wooden sword.

I don't think its QUITE that black and white, although that brings the potential for a House of.. yeah >.>

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

That "trained" knight was referred to as being horrible with a sword

Orly? Please do provide the exact quotation where Meryn Trant's swordsmanship was described as "horrible". Good luck! "Adequate", "sly and cruel", and "dour" you should find easily enough.

Also, I just noticed that Meryn reappears sooner than Sansa's visit to Traitor's Walk. He was present at Barristan Selmy's decloaking, and felt healthy enough to move toward apprehending the old legend.

[Shemy]

I'm accused of making up a scenario where Trant gives up before killing Syrio because there's no indication of that in the text, but there is also no indication Trant killed Syrio.

No, but it was implied that Syrio was left for dead given his circumstance. Look with your eyes line. Arya said it herself.

Also look at it realistically. What by default are 9/10 people going to assume? That Syrio died.

Arya left as both scenarios were equally possible to my mind, and nothing that comes later clears it up either way.

I don't understand how you can consider it "equally" possible . It's not equal in the slightest. The situation you described could occur, but very unlikely.

Also, do you honestly think that Meryn would let him live? What if someone had been watching? A member of the Kingsguard unable to kill an unarmed retired man, just for that reason alone I doubt he would say " Okay you win I give up " it's an insult to everything he is.

We don't get to know what sort of man Trant is, but I severly doubt he's going to let Syrio stand there and insult him and walk away, it's an insult to him, it's an insult to what he is.

While he may be no Jaime Lannister or Barristan, I'm sure he's not that terrible of a fighter that he cannot kill an unarmed and unarmoured man who refuses to run, even if said man is a master water dancer who was first sword of Braavos

[SFDanny]

Has it been determined that a month or so passed between Eddard's fall from grace and when Joffrey takes Sansa out to the battlements?

Determined? No, like all things having to do with the timeline there are questions. I'd also point out that I was using different markers. If we use the time from Cersei's coup to the scene on the battlements that is likely about twice as long. As far as I know, the first time we see Trant after his confrontation with Syrio is in the first court session of Joffrey's reign. That is when Sansa pleads for mercy for her father, and when Ser Barristan has his cloak taken from him. Trant's appearance isn't commented upon, but the fact he is there is. So, what time has passed between the two events? I used EB's timeline as guide, but if you are looking at the text for reference points I'd say he has a good approximation. In particular, I'd point to Sansa's thoughts when she hears Arya's name read out:

They wanted Arya to present herself and swear an oath ... it must mean her sister had fled on the galley, she must be safe in Winterfell by now ... (AGoT 518 US hardback)

Sansa has traveled from Winterfell to King's Landing, and knew of her father's plans for her to go back to Winterfell, so it isn't unlikely that she has a general idea of the time it takes to get there. I think we are operating in the timeframe of weeks, not days, at the very least for the time elapsed between the two events. Time enough for him to recover from wounds that would temporarily incapacitate, but not be too serious to cause a prolonged recovery period.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Time enough for him to recover from wounds that would temporarily incapacitate, but not be too serious to cause a prolonged recovery period.

But what sort of wounds would these be exactly? We know Trant didn't get stabbed in the eyes through the vision slit of his visor. What way could Syrio injure him through his full steel plate?

Note that even a steel sword is not generally adequate to get through steel plate...weapons like maces, warhammers, and poleaxes are effective at that, not swords. Duncan the Tall was only able to kill Lucas Inchfield by stabbing him through the gap under his armpit during a rare opening (underwater, no less); while earlier Lucas kept battering him with his poleaxe again and again.

Are we getting back to pushing trestle tables onto Meryn again, or throwing him off a battlement? I have a hard time believing Syrio could do worse than momentarily inconvenience Trant, while Syrio himself faced death with every strike from his opponent.

The improbabilities compound each other.