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House Targaryen

Mafia Game 65.5: Twonnocent

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In case anyone missed this the first time around (ie most of you :unsure: )

Another point for the players is that the FMs are part of the teams, and are for almost all intents and purposes treated the same as innocent players with regard to team interactions.

This is not an evil mod game, but it may seem to have evil characteristics if you don't read the information you are given. ;)

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Another point for the players is that the FMs are part of the teams, and are for almost all intents and purposes treated the same as innocent players with regard to team interactions.

:bang:

So. Basically, all we accomplished on Day One was to prove that we're complete morons.

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As I see our situation, there are 5 supporters of Rayenyra and 5 supporters of Aegon and one member of each faction is also FM.

Hmmm... this makes sense, but only kind of. A FM would ultimately be a member of Team Faith wherever he was placed. The fact that he also belonged to one of the teams would mean nothing to him, since his victory condition is that all members of BOTH teams be eliminated. It would only serve to confuse whichever innocent got told he was on their team (if one did). It also means the FM might have got information regarding another member of their innocent team the same as the rest of us.

All in all I think it's probably good we didn't lynch yesterday as we were working on so many false assumptions.

I think we need to start over with a fresh mind and look for scummy behaviour, disregarding possible connections (which can be due to partner knowledge). Obviously the goal of the game is to win, so we'll more probably than not try to look for the FM in the other team, because if we get it wrong it also slightly favors us, but I hope we lynch based on the best case regardless, because a FM victory will mean the defeat of all innocents regardless of their allegiance.

It's re-read time.

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Hmmm... this makes sense, but only kind of. A FM would ultimately be a member of Team Faith wherever he was placed. The fact that he also belonged to one of the teams would mean nothing to him, since his victory condition is that all members of BOTH teams be eliminated. It would only serve to confuse whichever innocent got told he was on their team (if one did). It also means the FM might have got information regarding another member of their innocent team the same as the rest of us.

All in all I think it's probably good we didn't lynch yesterday as we were working on so many false assumptions.

What he said.

I'm back around now and should be around for the next 5 hours or so (minus any meetings I might have at work).

A few things that come to mind when reading that (I just now got caught up).

1. I agree that we need to be incredibly careful about team loyalties. I want my team to win but I would really really hate if the FM won because we spent the entire time bitching at each other.

2. It's obvious we have to be careful what we assume since things aren't at all what they appear.

Now that I got the basic shit out of the way, time to hunt some FM.

Waterman

  • I know people are going to say it's weak and it is, but I still don't like his 4th finder claim. I was serious when I voted on it last time. There have been numerous times when a FM chimes in to follow the crowd. It just rang wrong with me, especially with the timing.
  • A case gets put on him, he comes back with rhetorical questions then disappears again. He comes back AFTER the deadline and AFTER there was a ton of talk about knowing team members and claims Thorne was innocent and the guy he knows. Then he disappears again.

This obviously isn't conclusive at all. It's not meant to be. But seriously, we need something from him.

I have at least one other that I want to look at a bit closer and will do after I get some food.

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My re-read wazs pretty quick but not very productive, since as Jordayne points out we all spent most of yesterday misunderstanding the rules.

If my assumption about the FM knowing at least one other person on their team is correct then they probably had a much better grasp on the setup than we did. This makes the interaction between Thorne, Jordayne, Doggett and Shawney (the one where they're trying to figure out how the setup works) look pretty good to me, as it sounds honest.

I think I'm going to put a vote on Melcolm. I think his answer that it wouldn't have occurred to him to symp his partner is pretty weak. I also tend to trust Piper's judgment, and it would make the night-kill make more sense. I think that the explanation that the FM knew Piper wasn't their symp is pretty weak, because if there's one FM on each team they had to know the likelihood of them having a symp at all was extremely low (it would break the symetry). Thorne/Piper also had a healer reveal during the RP phase which the FM could have taken seriously, but I think that's pretty far-fetched and unlikely too.

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I think I'm going to put a vote on Melcolm. I think his answer that it wouldn't have occurred to him to symp his partner is pretty weak. I also tend to trust Piper's judgment, and it would make the night-kill make more sense. I think that the explanation that the FM knew Piper wasn't their symp is pretty weak, because if there's one FM on each team they had to know the likelihood of them having a symp at all was extremely low (it would break the symetry). Thorne/Piper also had a healer reveal during the RP phase which the FM could have taken seriously, but I think that's pretty far-fetched and unlikely too.

I go out to get some food and I come back to you beating me to the punch. Melcolm was who I wanted to do my reread on, mainly because the Thorne kill doesn't make logical sense unless he was on to something.

My biggest problem with Melcolm is what Thorne pointed out...that all of the people he was willing to vote were people who had connections to each other. I think that seems a bit daft in a game where he knows another person from his own team.

At the same time, I had absolutely no desire to symp the person I know. If I was the only person with the information I had, I had no desire to draw attention to it. I want my team to win. Obviously that point is moot now that we know that FM are a part of the two teams, but at that time, it didn't make any sense. However, Melcolm's answer interests me as you pointed out. He said it didn't occur to him instead of saying he didn't want to do it because it might out himself, jeopordize his team, ect. It just doesn't seem like the most fitting answer for the question.

Anyway, both my case on Waterman and your case on Melcolm are still pretty weak. I feel like they're day 1 cases yet worse. I'd still vote for both though.

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Thorne was a weird night kill choice.

Are we ready to identify the two teams?

We have Thorne, Dalt and Waterman on one team, with Thorne dead.

Vicky on the other team. Odds are that me and the person I know are also on this team (unless Dalt knows me)

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At this point, I think the first thing we need to do is get all of the information on the table. If the FM are hidden among the factions, then it seems logical to assume there is one on each team. We are now down to a group of 4 and a group of 5. We need to finish splitting them up, so we can work with more manageable suspect pools.

I think we should each code the person who we are symping into a post, and then all reveal those codes at the same time. If the FM each got 1 name of a person on their faction, they will be able to blend in. But if they got the names of their entire faction, or no name at all, they will have a hard time guessing at who they should reveal.

Also, as I said above, even if the trick doesn't work, I think we need all of the information on the table right now. I'm sick of bumbling around without a clear picture of whats going on.

To create a code -

1) Go to this website.

2) In the box labeled message, type in the name of the person you are symping. In front of the name and behind the name, add extra letters, so nobody can decipher your code just by counting the number of letters in your coded message.

3) Type in a keyword.

4) Hit 'encipher'.

Then post your Result here. Later, we will all reveal our keywords, and the player we are symping. We can then go back and check to see if anybody is lying.

Here's my own code -

NOFBMJOBVMARSMYKOVPJNKBAV

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It is day 2.

9 players remain: Dalt, Doggett, Jordayne, Melcolm, Shawney, Spicer, Vikary, Wagstaff, Waterman.

5 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

1 vote for Melcolm (Wagstaff)

1 vote for Waterman (Spicer)

7 players have not voted: Dalt, Doggett, Jordayne, Melcolm, Shawney, Vikary, Waterman.

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Of those likely to be on the smaller team, I find Melcolm the most suspicious. He had the most to gain from Thorne's death. Thorne's case was so-so, but had he lived, it is likely we would have listened to him today.

We have time, but I don't want to waste it. It is never too early to tighten the thumb screws.

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At this point, I think the first thing we need to do is get all of the information on the table. If the FM are hidden among the factions, then it seems logical to assume there is one on each team. We are now down to a group of 4 and a group of 5. We need to finish splitting them up, so we can work with more manageable suspect pools.

I think we should each code the person who we are symping into a post, and then all reveal those codes at the same time. If the FM each got 1 name of a person on their faction, they will be able to blend in. But if they got the names of their entire faction, or no name at all, they will have a hard time guessing at who they should reveal.

Also, as I said above, even if the trick doesn't work, I think we need all of the information on the table right now. I'm sick of bumbling around without a clear picture of whats going on.

I'm not a FM, and I have a name I could use to cover my ass, but I really think this goes against the spirit of mafia...

There are two barely legal practices in mafia that I seriously loathe, one of them is asking a player to swear, and the other is using encryption pages. Though not strictly against the rules I think they violate the whole purpose of the game and would rather not be a part of either of them.

I'm also not sure I see the point. If the FM are indeed integrated into a team, they have only to say the truth. There's also more than enough information out there to guess the name of a component of each of the teams, so even if they didn't have this information they could easily just talk to each other and coordinate to fool this sistem (I won't say how but I think it's very obvious).

Yet another factor that makes me think this is not a good idea is this: right now there are two teams, lets call them team Dalt and team Vikary. Team Dalt is currently one member down if Thorne was telling the truth (which he likely was, being innocent). With complete knowledge of the team composition then team Vikary has almost definitely already won (unless they lose to the FM). If our guesses regarding the game's structure are correct, members of team Dalt have a 25% chance of being a FM, while members of team Vikary have only a 20%, chance. Also, members of team Vikary would rather try to find the FM in team Dalt than in their own team. They have a higher % chance of hitting a FM, and if they get it wrong it increases their advantage over the other team, so it's not a complete loss.

So no, I'm not going through with using encription pages as part of a mafia game and don't really agree with a full faction reveal either. If you would lynch me because of this I can deal with that.

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I'm not a FM, and I have a name I could use to cover my ass, but I really think this goes against the spirit of mafia...

There are two barely legal practices in mafia that I seriously loathe, one of them is asking a player to swear, and the other is using encryption pages. Though not strictly against the rules I think they violate the whole purpose of the game and would rather not be a part of either of them.

Thats ridiculous. People use codes all the time. There's no difference.

I'm also not sure I see the point. If the FM are indeed integrated into a team, they have only to say the truth. There's also more than enough information out there to guess the name of a component of each of the teams, so even if they didn't have this information they could easily just talk to each other and coordinate to fool this sistem (I won't say how but I think it's very obvious).

I disagree. There's still enough hidden information that they wouldn't be able to guess at which names they should say.

Yet another factor that makes me think this is not a good idea is this: right now there are two teams, lets call them team Dalt and team Vikary. Team Dalt is currently one member down if Thorne was telling the truth (which he likely was, being innocent). With complete knowledge of the team composition then team Vikary has almost definitely already won (unless they lose to the FM). If our guesses regarding the game's structure are correct, members of team Dalt have a 25% chance of being a FM, while members of team Vikary have only a 20%, chance. Also, members of team Vikary would rather try to find the FM in team Dalt than in their own team. They have a higher % chance of hitting a FM, and if they get it wrong it increases their advantage over the other team, so it's not a complete loss.

I guess I can buy that to some extent. I was just hoping people would care more about finding the FM than battling between 2 innocent factions.

To be honest, I find the whole concept of this game flawed. No offense intended to TMW, because I know how hard it is to be a mod, and I know it sucks to see people complaining about a game setup. So I apologize in advance....but I just don't like having 2 separate innocent factions battling each other. It changes the game too much for me.

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There are two barely legal practices in mafia that I seriously loathe, one of them is asking a player to swear, and the other is using encryption pages. Though not strictly against the rules I think they violate the whole purpose of the game
Why? I can see what might be problem with swearing (for a religious person), but I fail to understand how encryption violates the purpose of the game.
Team Dalt is currently one member down if Thorne was telling the truth (which he likely was, being innocent).
Piper is perfectly able to lie as innocent, if he thinks it would benefit his team.
Also, members of team Vikary would rather try to find the FM in team Dalt than in their own team.

with that.

In fact you already told us that you belong to Dalt team, so I won't try to convince you. It's inner concern of your faction, I suppose. :)

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Why? I can see what might be problem with swearing (for a religious person), but I fail to understand how encryption violates the purpose of the game.

I think he meant swearing as in (swear that you're telling the truth on the life of your mother) or something like that.

And encryption is kind of an iffy thing. I do think we've gone from playing mafia to playing the mods and that can get rather annoying. When we use codes, we put them in our posts. When we use encryption, no one can figure it out. It's an unbeatable system of being able to hide things that no one can guess. I mean, think about it.

If at the beginning of each game, people encrypted what role they were then they have irrefutable proof of what they are. They couldn't lie because someone else could have the same role and we'd know they were both lying. It'd prove claims. It's a bit game breaking and the fact that we're trying to slip up the FM based on information the mod may or may not have given them takes away the whole "is he suspicious" aspect of the game. Because quite frankly, it doesn't matter.

Either way, I've done it and I'll go along with it if that's what it takes but I think it sets a dangerous precendent for the future.

I'd actually like a mod to come in and tell us if this is against the game. I think that might clear it up.

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