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House Targaryen

Mafia Game 65.5: Twonnocent

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I asked the mod if it was possible the FM were told the PM sent to the innocents. My reason was because I felt the main thing in Melcolm's favor was the he revealed a word in the innocent PM (which is against the rules if he's innocent, as Piper pointed out, but whatever...)

The mod said that yes, it is possible that he was told the innocent PM. So the point that I thought stood in his favor is actually completely empty.

Without that point, I tend to agree with Piper's case against Melcolm. So I wouldn't mind casting a third vote on him, to see what happens. Melcolm

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Apparently I'm an idiot who can't read (at least we're all in good company :cheers:). I didn't even notice Dalt called Vikary his childhood nemesis before Day One even finished until now.

Since we're now going to look at suspicious behaviour instead of connections between players, I might as well vocalize something that's been bothering me. Does anyone else think that Wagstaff and Spicer are so far in the middle of the road they're in danger of being run over? As (ironically) Wagstaff said, most people seem very genuine, as if they're legitimately struggling to figure what the hell is going on. Meanwhile, Wagstaff and Spicer have both sat back and gone, "Hmm, that's interesting. I think I'm going to reread some more. Now, here's a case on an easy target." Wagstaff in particular has been very resistant to our looking at connections between players. Also, Melcolm seems at least ten steps behind everyone else. I don't know if this is because he's evil or just clueless.

Just want to know if anyone else got that impression.

<--The above paragraph was written before I saw Wagstaff's posts. Now I realize he could be an innocent player who believes himself to be in the faction with fewer members. Still...I'll be watching you. :ninja:

At this point, I think the first thing we need to do is get all of the information on the table. If the FM are hidden among the factions, then it seems logical to assume there is one on each team. We are now down to a group of 4 and a group of 5. We need to finish splitting them up, so we can work with more manageable suspect pools.

This is the best reason to reveal.

WXGOFIKFGS

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What are your thoughts on Melcolm?
He slightly irritates me, for squirrel reasons, but I don't really suspect him. As somebody already said, the case is weak even for day 1.

Bad thing is that I don't suspect anybody, at this stage. If I was forced to vote, I'd probably voted Waterman.

Also, do you care more about finding FM or voting people off of the opposite innocent team?
The former, of course. In fact, I see no big difference between winning of my team or of yours. Getting rid of FMs is way, way more important.

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I'd actually like a mod to come in and tell us if this is against the game. I think that might clear it up.

There are no rules in this particular game that forbid it - it is not against the game.

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Apparently I'm an idiot who can't read (at least we're all in good company :cheers:). I didn't even notice Dalt called Vikary his childhood nemesis before Day One even finished until now.

Since we're now going to look at suspicious behaviour instead of connections between players, I might as well vocalize something that's been bothering me. Does anyone else think that Wagstaff and Spicer are so far in the middle of the road they're in danger of being run over? As (ironically) Wagstaff said, most people seem very genuine, as if they're legitimately struggling to figure what the hell is going on. Meanwhile, Wagstaff and Spicer have both sat back and gone, "Hmm, that's interesting. I think I'm going to reread some more. Now, here's a case on an easy target." Wagstaff in particular has been very resistant to our looking at connections between players. Also, Melcolm seems at least ten steps behind everyone else. I don't know if this is because he's evil or just clueless.

Just want to know if anyone else got that impression.

It's not false. There is a reason you have gotten that impression. The first is I was asleep during all of the discussion (after the first 4 pages) for day 1. This is where all the game discussion took place on whether everyone knows someone from their team and if this means they're innocent. The second reason is I've given up trying to outplay the mod. I just don't care enough to do that. I like the case making, the connection finding and the arguing that ensues when this happens. I do not like trying to take information from the PM and start trapping the FM. It's not fun to me. It seems recent games have become this and I can't stand it. If that's how the game is going to be, might as well replace me or modkill me. You will never see me suggesting some kind of encryption based method to trap FM. Ever.

So if you want to start discussing things that I find interesting, I'm here to participate. If you want to play outplay the mod, count me out. If you find that suspicious, so be it. I'm not going to apologize for that :dunno:

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The second reason is I've given up trying to outplay the mod. I just don't care enough to do that. I like the case making, the connection finding and the arguing that ensues when this happens. I do not like trying to take information from the PM and start trapping the FM. It's not fun to me. It seems recent games have become this and I can't stand it. If that's how the game is going to be, might as well replace me or modkill me. You will never see me suggesting some kind of encryption based method to trap FM. Ever.

So if you want to start discussing things that I find interesting, I'm here to participate. If you want to play outplay the mod, count me out. If you find that suspicious, so be it. I'm not going to apologize for that :dunno:

Anybody else want to go on a self-righteous rant? :rolleyes:

We've been given information, and its only natural that we consider using it.

That said, since so many people are whining about it, I'm dropping the full reveal idea. Its not worth the debate. Lets just forget about it.

So go ahead Spicer. Make a case on somebody. Or are you too busy blaming everyone else for your lack of contribution?

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It's not false. There is a reason you have gotten that impression. The first is I was asleep during all of the discussion (after the first 4 pages) for day 1. This is where all the game discussion took place on whether everyone knows someone from their team and if this means they're innocent. The second reason is I've given up trying to outplay the mod. I just don't care enough to do that. I like the case making, the connection finding and the arguing that ensues when this happens. I do not like trying to take information from the PM and start trapping the FM. It's not fun to me. It seems recent games have become this and I can't stand it. If that's how the game is going to be, might as well replace me or modkill me. You will never see me suggesting some kind of encryption based method to trap FM. Ever.

So if you want to start discussing things that I find interesting, I'm here to participate. If you want to play outplay the mod, count me out. If you find that suspicious, so be it. I'm not going to apologize for that :dunno:

What about the case made on Melcolm? Do you have any thoughts on that?

ps: I have a feeling the mods are amused by our trying to out guess them.

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I think he meant swearing as in (swear that you're telling the truth on the life of your mother) or something like that.
Evidently.

What I meant is that non-religious (and non-superstitious) person won't hesitate to swear falsely on the life of their mother. It isn't different from plain lie.

When we use encryption, no one can figure it out. It's an unbeatable system of being able to hide things that no one can guess.
So is being silent.

Encrypting something and not posting the key word is senseless. Encrypting something and posting the key word is exactly same as posting encrypted stuff on the thread, the only difference is some time shift which doesn't create any new quality.

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So no, I'm not going through with using encription pages as part of a mafia game and don't really agree with a full faction reveal either. If you would lynch me because of this I can deal with that.

We're not doing a full-faction reveal just yet. All coding your answer in your post would do is prove that you're not pulling a teammate's name out of your ass in a few days should we ever need to reveal in order to catch the last FM. Evil players already have this information; it just means they can't lie about it and pretend to symp someone else if it's more convenient for them. This is a way of making sure everything stays consistent and no one muddies the waters with false information.

Yet another factor that makes me think this is not a good idea is this: right now there are two teams, lets call them team Dalt and team Vikary. Team Dalt is currently one member down if Thorne was telling the truth (which he likely was, being innocent). With complete knowledge of the team composition then team Vikary has almost definitely already won (unless they lose to the FM). If our guesses regarding the game's structure are correct, members of team Dalt have a 25% chance of being a FM, while members of team Vikary have only a 20%, chance. Also, members of team Vikary would rather try to find the FM in team Dalt than in their own team. They have a higher % chance of hitting a FM, and if they get it wrong it increases their advantage over the other team, so it's not a complete loss.

I'm trying to figure out your motivations. I think Vikary and I are on the same page. I would really like to know the person you're symping, Wagstaff, because it's key to my suspicions.

By the way, Piper of Chaos, if you're reading this and you were lying about Dalt: :mad:. Thanks for making things much more confusing for us.

If at the beginning of each game, people encrypted what role they were then they have irrefutable proof of what they are. They couldn't lie because someone else could have the same role and we'd know they were both lying. It'd prove claims. It's a bit game breaking and the fact that we're trying to slip up the FM based on information the mod may or may not have given them takes away the whole "is he suspicious" aspect of the game. Because quite frankly, it doesn't matter.

But symps and FM also use codes to prove themselves. All that means is that evil players need more foresight before claiming a role. People have done this in the past, so it's certainly not against the rules. Future game mods can worry about the ethics of codes, but it's too late now.

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We're not doing a full-faction reveal just yet. All coding your answer in your post would do is prove that you're not pulling a teammate's name out of your ass in a few days should we ever need to reveal in order to catch the last FM. Evil players already have this information; it just means they can't lie about it and pretend to symp someone else if it's more convenient for them. This is a way of making sure everything stays consistent and no one muddies the waters with false information.

Huh? How do you know that?

We've speculated about it, but nobody has been certain. Except for you.

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Anybody else want to go on a self-righteous rant? :rolleyes:

We've been given information, and its only natural that we consider using it.

That said, since so many people are whining about it, I'm dropping the full reveal idea. Its not worth the debate. Lets just forget about it.

So go ahead Spicer. Make a case on somebody. Or are you too busy blaming everyone else for your lack of contribution?

Self righteous or not, it's how I like to play the game. I could give two fucks if you like that or not.

As for contribution, I made a case on Waterman. I put my thoughts out on Melcolm before you and Doggett. I'm glad your reading comprehension is up to your level of snarkiness. If you're going to blame me for lack of contribution, at least be sure of your facts.

What about the case made on Melcolm? Do you have any thoughts on that?

ps: I have a feeling the mods are amused by our trying to out guess them.

Dude, read my posts. I posted way before you did.

Encrypting something and not posting the key word is senseless. Encrypting something and posting the key word is exactly same as posting encrypted stuff on the thread, the only difference is some time shift which doesn't create any new quality.

I already discussed why I don't like encryption. It sets a precedent. Someone can post an encrypted role then post the key later to prove that they were claiming that role from the beginning. If everyone did that, you could break the game in a day. It's lame.

But symps and FM also use codes to prove themselves. All that means is that evil players need more foresight before claiming a role. People have done this in the past, so it's certainly not against the rules. Future game mods can worry about the ethics of codes, but it's too late now.

They use codes. They put the codes in their posts to refer to certain things. Those codes can be found if someone is observant or is looking hard. VSM has found them before, Filter, WJ, ect. An encrypted post cannot be decrypted without the key. It cannot be found. I don't see how this is so hard to understand.

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We've been given information, and its only natural that we consider using it.
It reminds me an old game where mods gave us three hints. Something about yellow avatars, animal avatars and two-syllable alts.

We spent most of the game discussing this hints and trying to solve the game by them... Then we stopped it and just lycnhed several most suspicious players. And won.

After the game, it turns up that hints were totally random.

I am afraid we have roughly same situation here.

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Thats ridiculous. People use codes all the time. There's no difference.

*sigh* I don't mean to say it's unethical, but to me it's against the spirit of the game. I'm not a great fan of codes either, but I think they give much more leeway to lies, trickery and other fun stuff. Or would you be just as fine if I encode a name into my post rather than use your elaborate encription scheme?

Anyway, I don't like using encription software in mafia and I'm not going to do so. Enough said.

I disagree. There's still enough hidden information that they wouldn't be able to guess at which names they should say.

I guess we don't see the puzzle in the same way. To me there would be lots of different right answers and very few wrong ones. And a wrong answer would only tell us one person in a group was lying, not which one.

I guess I can buy that to some extent. I was just hoping people would care more about finding the FM than battling between 2 innocent factions.

I care about winning the game. I want to lynch the final FM while I think my innocent team has more players than the other innocent team. I also care about having fun, obviously. The setting is certainly experimental, and it might not work, but I'm going to play in accordance to its rules.

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It reminds me an old game where mods gave us three hints. Something about yellow avatars, animal avatars and two-syllable alts.

We spent most of the game discussing this hints and trying to solve the game by them... Then we stopped it and just lycnhed several most suspicious players. And won.

After the game, it turns up that hints were totally random.

I am afraid we have roughly same situation here.

The only difference being we can figure who the two teams are, just not who among them is FM.

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Huh? How do you know that?

We've speculated about it, but nobody has been certain. Except for you.

Sorry, that wasn't a slip. But good try :P. I just made an assumption based on all the metagaming everyone's done and based on this post:

Another point for the players is that the FMs are part of the teams, and are for almost all intents and purposes treated the same as innocent players with regard to team interactions.

At this point, I think it's pretty obvious that there's one evil player in the Aegon partner chain and another in the Rhaenyra chain. No other explanation makes sense.

ETA: Actually, I suppose there are other explanations. For example, an evil player could know the names of all the other players on his team. But Team FM probably has some information on the set-up available to them.

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The only difference being we can figure who the two teams are, just not who among them is FM.

It depends. What Dalt was getting at is that it's possible the FM didn't get the same information as us. It's also possible that they got more information than we did. As a result, should we encrypt the name of the person we were told on our team, the FM might slip up and post someone twice. If there was a discrepency where 2 people knew the same person on the team, then we know one is lying (if there wasn't any other discrepencies to confirm that it could happen). Again, all we're doing is testing the mod and his preparation.

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At this point, I think it's pretty obvious that there's one evil player in the Aegon partner chain and another in the Rhaenyra chain. No other explanation makes sense.

I agree. So one of Waterman, Dalt, Spicer or Melcolm should be guilty. I don't suspect Dalt or Waterman. That leaves us with Spicer and Melcolm. My vote is on Melcolm, but it could easily be Spicer as well (middle of the road)

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I already discussed why I don't like encryption. It sets a precedent.
The precedent was set dozens games before.
VSM has found them before, Filter, WJ, ect.
If you are experienced enough to know this, how could you say using encryption sets a precedent? We used encryption already many times. Less than codes, but still very many.

You are lying. I am not sure how this benefits you if guilty, but you are lying, Spicer.

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I agree. So one of Waterman, Dalt, Spicer or Melcolm should be guilty. I don't suspect Dalt or Waterman. That leaves us with Spicer and Melcolm. My vote is on Melcolm, but it could easily be Spicer as well (middle of the road)

I don't get it? And again, if you're calling me middle of the road, please explain where. I mean, I do have a vote down. I did put my thoughts down on Melcolm before you and said I would vote them. I guess that's middle of the road? :confused:

The precedent was set dozens games before.

If you are experienced enough to know this, how could you say using encryption sets a precedent? We used encryption already many times. Less than codes, but still very many.

You are lying. I am not sure how this benefits you if guilty, but you are lying, Spicer.

Has it now? I think I must be missing something.

I know about codes. I am experienced. It should be pretty obvious. I cannot think of one time that encryption was used. Actually, I can and it was when Kat used it way back when with her colored pictures. But she used it through codes. The codes were the keywords and the encrypted word was based on links. Or something like that. Either way, it was all done through posts.

And really? What am I lying about? That I don't like encryption? That I think it can break games if we start using it on a regular basis? Ok. If that makes me evil, so be it.

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They use codes. They put the codes in their posts to refer to certain things. Those codes can be found if someone is observant or is looking hard. VSM has found them before, Filter, WJ, ect. An encrypted post cannot be decrypted without the key. It cannot be found. I don't see how this is so hard to understand.

Well, no one's stopping you from leaving another kind of code ;).

I agree. So one of Waterman, Dalt, Spicer or Melcolm should be guilty. I don't suspect Dalt or Waterman. That leaves us with Spicer and Melcolm. My vote is on Melcolm, but it could easily be Spicer as well (middle of the road)

I'm not sure how you came up with those teams. (Now I'm I'm trying to figure out your thought process.) However, if we're narrowing the suspect pool down to those players, then I'm going to vote Spicer. He keeps on making himself look worse and worse. I can understand someone not liking the idea of encryption. What I don't understand is why an innocent player would get this worked up over codes. Other people have been frustrated and confused by the set-up. Spicer seems furious. This reminds me a bit of Mexal's behaviour in Minigame 64.5 when half the players in the game became VPIs.

You know what I think? I think the FM realize they're the losers in the situation. The whole game has become a case of metagaming and process of elimination. They have a small number of targets on whom to make cases, but it's only a matter of time before everyone puts two and two together and narrows things down to them.

And they're fucking pissed off.

That's why Spicer's reaction worries me.

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