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Exercise & Fitness IV


Angalin

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con't from previous thread...

She's on vacation for two weeks, unfortunately.

Oh yes, the fabulous surprise vacation! Thanks for reminding me.

And thanks for the advice on the leg thing. I get confused when I hear the phrase 'straight back" when it involves something you do while lying on the ground. Does straight=touching the floor, like Angalin mentioned, or does it involve letting your spine have its natural curve? The former seems to help, but again, I would prefer not to fuck up my back doing questionable ab exercises when I could do more familiar ones instead.

Neutral spine, in Pilates-speak. Forgive the for-dummies link, but it was the first one I found with pictures. :) Here are pictures of both the neutral and the imprinted spine; there's a link at the bottom of the page on how to imprint correctly. The idea is that when your legs are waving around in the air, first you correctly imprint your spine by engaging your abs then lift your legs and feet. Engaging the core gives stability.

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Ztem, low weight, high reps is good for absolutely nothing.

I'm dubious of this claim. Doesn't endurance count for anything, functionally? Life isn't just having big muscles. Or at least it isn't for me, despite the fantasies I admitted to in an earlier thread.

Let's say* I can lift 100 lbs 8 times at the gym in some motion or another, just as an example. Then let's say I spend an afternoon doing some manual task which involves the same motion but lifting 10-15 lb items over and over again, or carrying them, or something. That can make you muscle-tired in a way that is completely different than lifting a heavier weight a much smaller number of times. So if you still have to recover from the latter activity, aren't your muscles still getting conditioned in some way, even if it's not the same thing you normally train for? What good is being able to lift 100 lbs a few times if the vast majority of the time, you're not going to encounter that situation? :dunno:

*As an example, not saying that I can do 100 lbs with anything that isn't part of a pull-up or a leg press. :P

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Why is the deadlift such an effective back thickness exercise? I can see why it helps with the traps, glutes, hamstrings, etc. How it hits the upper back is kind of mysterious to me though.

Well, think about the action of a deadlift. That heavy bar is hanging off your arms. So even though your legs, bum and core should be doing almost all the work, your upper back is inadvertently taking some of the strain, even just by controlling the bar on its ascent and descent.

Also, according to the way I’ve been taught how to do it, when you get to the very top of a rep, you should retract your shoulders and push your chest out a wee bit (eg, trying to pull your shoulders back and your shoulder blades together). This gives your rear shoulders and upper back muscles a wee hit on each rep. Even though it’s just a small movement at the end of the rep, given the heavy loads you lift on deadlifts, that still has a nice impact on those muscles.

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I'm dubious of this claim. Doesn't endurance count for anything, functionally? Life isn't just having big muscles. Or at least it isn't for me, despite the fantasies I admitted to in an earlier thread.

Let's say* I can lift 100 lbs 8 times at the gym in some motion or another, just as an example. Then let's say I spend an afternoon doing some manual task which involves the same motion but lifting 10-15 lb items over and over again, or carrying them, or something. That can make you muscle-tired in a way that is completely different than lifting a heavier weight a much smaller number of times. So if you still have to recover from the latter activity, aren't your muscles still getting conditioned in some way, even if it's not the same thing you normally train for? What good is being able to lift 100 lbs a few times if the vast majority of the time, you're not going to encounter that situation? :dunno:

*As an example, not saying that I can do 100 lbs with anything that isn't part of a pull-up or a leg press. :P

As I've said before it's all about the goals. If you go for strength with big muscles as byproduct you have to accept the fact you're sacrificing endurance at least to some extent. Not taking into account that fast twitch muscle fibers have a low endurance potential there's also the fact that bigger muscles need to burn more oxygen to move against a resistance no matter how small it is. This also partly results to fatigue due rapid accumulation of waste products in the muscle. As you said the training/conditioning effect is completely different between small and heavy resistances. It affects different motor units and also modifies the existing patterns. Also fast muscle fibers can change into slow ones due to endurance training (this happens a lot easier than the other way around). So there's a tradeoff and the question is do you want to be great at being strong or great at being durable or good at both but great at nothing. Most of us go for the last option.

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stuff (that makes sense)

dude, did you get a chance to look at the stuff I wrote in the closed thread in answer to your question about which sport I coach?

Just aware that I replied days after you asked, so you may have missed it

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dude, did you get a chance to look at the stuff I wrote in the closed thread in answer to your question about which sport I coach?

Just aware that I replied days after you asked, so you may have missed it

Yeah I did mate. Watched the video as well and consequently found yet another sport I didn't know even existed :)

Question: I gather that you have to drop the ball when an opponent touches you (or when you touch an opponent on purpose). When the ball is on the ground can the opposing team go for it or how are they supposed to stop the advance? It always looked pretty desperate for the defending team on the video but I guess I'd need to see a bit more to get a decent overview of the game.

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I actually got up and worked out today. Been a couple weeks since I have done it, 10 minutes on the treadmill and then upper body. Legs are still sore from all the squats weeding and gardening I did yesterday.

I was up before the alarm and even managed to get to work 10 minutes early. I hope this means I am over the worse of the recent problems.

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Yeah I did mate. Watched the video as well and consequently found yet another sport I didn't know even existed :)

Question: I gather that you have to drop the ball when an opponent touches you (or when you touch an opponent on purpose). When the ball is on the ground can the opposing team go for it or how are they supposed to stop the advance? It always looked pretty desperate for the defending team on the video but I guess I'd need to see a bit more to get a decent overview of the game.

It’s not so much a dropping, more a placing on the ground for the guy behind you to pick up and pass. We call it ‘dumping’.

No, the opposition can’t go for it when you plant it (unless you take ages to pick it up – that would be the ref’s call).

Basically, you get six goes with the ball (called a ‘set of six’ or just ‘a set’), just like in rugby league or similar to the American football idea of four downs to get 10 yards. So, when your team gets touched for the sixth time, you have to hand the ball over to the opposition and then they get six goes.

That’s obviously the simple version of the rule. You’d also hand the ball over if your team dropped it, threw a pass that bounced before someone caught it, gave away a penalty or any other reason the ref might give (there’s quite a few technical infringements in the game).

Similarly, you get more possessions if the opposition gives away a penalty or touches the ball in flight (say, you passed the ball, they tried to intercept it but just ended up touching it or knocking it down). In those circumstances, the touch count goes back to zero.

Tactically, it means it ends up being a bit of a territory and pressure game. You usually get possession on your own line, so you drive up the field, using touches, and then might get a couple of goes on their line (the field is 70m long).

So, often you’re trying to either get a penalty and a fresh set near their line, or you drive up to their line, hand the ball over and try to put a lot of pressure on so they either make a mistake and you get a fresh set near their line, or they don’t get very far and have to turn the ball over near their line.

Remember that the YouTube clip is highlights. So they're the best bits and the scores from a 40-minute-long game.

From a conditioning point of view, the players work as rolling subs - you have a team of about 12 or 14, but only six on the field at a time. So each player is on the field for about a minute, a minute and a half at a time before interchaning with a team-mate from the sideline for about the same length of time. So, it's hardcore anaerobic work for about a minute or so, then a minute's rest, then back on and so on and so on.

So, we use the off-season for the players to get an aerobic base, and then, about six weeks before the season starts, the conditioning work turns completely into hardcore anaerobic interval and speed endurance work. Our speed work is based on short bursts of 5 to 10m and lots of acceleration technique and acceleration drills. Weights is obviously a strength base followed by pre-season power work

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Folks, low weight, high reps do nothing for you. It doesn't tone -- there's no such thing. It does not build weightlifting endurance. Which is why you do an activity for long periods of time...to build endurance at that particular activity. It does not translate. It does not build muscle in an adult male who is a weightlifter. It does not increase flexibility. It does not build strength in any way.

There is a reason there are motto's such as "Go Heavy or Go Home." I did not invent them.

People have differing goals, and I am increasingly accepting of that. But I'm assuming no one in this threads goal is to waste their time while looking like a douche in the gym, correct?

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Folks, low weight, high reps do nothing for you.

I know there are a lot of questionable sites out there, but most of what I am seeing says that for weight loss, the increase in heart rate that comes more with the low weight/high rep exercises is better.

Also that one you have started building mass with the high weight/low reps, doing the lw/hr can increase the capilaries in the muscles, allowing for more blood flow and therefore allowing you to continue to bulk up.

I don't want muscles or even strength, I just want the jiggles to go away. (speaking of which, there is now a lot less jiggle in the arms than there used to be...the upper arms are down an inch)

just to be clear, I work out at what I would feel is a medium amount of weight; not my max, but enough that I have a little difficulty with the last reps. I am sure most would call what I use "light weights"

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I'll be happy to work out with all of you at Worldcon. Let's plan on it.

I'd love that. Even when you laugh at me. I know what I am doing has gotten me down 25 pounds in about 10 weeks...and that is my goal. I have 12 more to go to meet my worldcon goal and then another 20 for my end of year goal. The only person I am in competition with is myself.

And I do follow the body for life model...12 reps, increase weight, 10 reps, increase weight 8 reps, back to the 12 reps. it kicks may ass and I am sure my highest weight isn't even a medium weight (and I have a hard time on that last set of 8 and 12) And I do them quickly with only enough a break to move the peg down a slot.

changed the weeks I have been at it...time flies when have fun.

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Folks, low weight, high reps do nothing for you. It does not build weightlifting endurance. Which is why you do an activity for long periods of time...to build endurance at that particular activity. It does not translate. It does not build muscle in an adult male who is a weightlifter.

Bullshit

Lower weight, higher rep sets will increase the size of slow-twitch muscle fibres, which anyone doing a strength-endurance sport such as rowing uses more than fast-twitch fibres. It will also help develop fatigue resistance during anaerobic endurance, ATP/PC storage generation and capillarity (the body's ability to supply blood to muscles whilst they're working).

"Extensive hypertrophy (higher repetitions, lower weight) and intensive hypertrophy (lower repetitions, higher weight) methods should be used for strength-endurance and power sports respectively, because they develop different sorts of muscle fibres."

Better Coaching; Advanced Coach's Manual, Pyke F (ed), Australian Sports Commission, 2001

If lower weight, higher reps didn't make muscles bigger, then body-builders wouldn't do back-off sets, which are one of the oldest of the advanced methods of strength gain and hypertrophy. (although, to be fair, back off sets aren't entirely about the high rep/low weight recruiting slow-twitch fibres, they're also because neural disinhibition from the heavy sets will allow you to go slightly heavier on a high rep set than you might have been otherwise able to).

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I don't think anyone meant "low weight" as in something that isn't challenging, Stego. For example, for me, bicep curls with 10 pounds would be extremely challenging; 7.5 pounds, very do-able, and I can do more reps with them, until I burn out.

So 7.5 pounds would be considered "low weight, high reps" (because I can do 2 sets of 12 and "feel the burn" in the second set), rather than just lifting 10 pounds 4 or 5 times and having to call it a day. I mean, i realize that I'm not going to "bulk up". But I want to feel productive, and for me, it feels more like I'm "doing something" on my aforementioned 2 sets of 12 rather than just maxing out at 10 pounds with 4 reps, 1 set, and not being able to do that much with it, comparatively.

So I think that there is some validity, there.

To be honest, Chataya, 2 sets of 12 with burn on the second set? Get yourself the 10 pounder, do two sets of 10, if you're not feeling burn by rep #8, you don't have enough weight. Rest for about 30 seconds between the sets. Third set, get yourself a heavier weight, like a 12 pounder, and do 8 reps. That's working muscle.

The whole point of weight training is to break the muscle fiber so you can rebuild it stronger. If you're not breaking it with a heavier weight, what is there to build? Not saying that you should be nuts and maxing out at 1 or 2 reps. 10 reps is fine, but if you can do 10 and feel nothing you're not doing that much work. The set I mentioned above would be considered a light to moderate amount of work, since you're able to hit 10 and keep it that way for at least 2 sets.

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Also that one you have started building mass with the high weight/low reps, doing the lw/hr can increase the capilaries in the muscles, allowing for more blood flow and therefore allowing you to continue to bulk up.

I don't want muscles or even strength, I just want the jiggles to go away. (speaking of which, there is now a lot less jiggle in the arms than there used to be...the upper arms are down an inch)

I've also heard of that capillary-building thing.

As for getting rid of the jiggles, swimming is good for that I hear.

Also congrats on losing all that weight in that amount of time that sounds rreally impressive. You must have had to make some pretty big changes and it sounds like you really stuck with your program. Really, congrats and good luck in the future.

@ Stego: When I saw Borat I was expecting a much funnier video, oh well. :-(

Also, I wasn't clear on what you were saying when you said 'it doesn't translate.' Do you mean that lifting low weights doesn't translate to sports performance, or vice versa? Or did you mean that although the continuous repetition of one activity (running, swimming etc) will make you better at that activity, lifting low weights will not make you better at lifting weights?

But anyway, I feel like a lot of athletic activity translates to strength. When I was running a lot I was doing 430 lbs on the leg press at my school gym (I could have gone higher but the weight maxed out), and I never did any kind of lifting.

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Bullshit

Believe what you will. I thought my answer before made it pretty obvious I wanted to drop the absurd argument.

If one is training to row, for instance, one needs to row to train the slow twitch muscles needed for rowing. And row for a long time. Yay rowing. Yay. Light (for the individual) weight, high rep weightlifting will not be a suitable substitute. There is a reason rowers row and runners run.

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When I was running a lot I was doing 430 lbs on the leg press at my school gym (I could have gone higher but the weight maxed out), and I never did any kind of lifting.

To a certain extent, this is absolutely true! Real life activity can make you very, very strong! We all know blacksmiths are beasts in fantasy tales. :D Farmers are strong, too. One of the events at the Strong man competitions includes a 'farmer's walk.'

That said, don't take a leg press's numbers and think they translate to actual weight, please. This is an exercise folks wank to all the time. It is great for quad development, don't get me wrong, and it nice following squats... but folks can normally leg press 4x or so what they can actually squat. I can leg press televangelist type numbers, but I can't come anywhere close to half that in a squat.

(Yes, Pat Robertson is retarded and has no clue how to lift weights.)

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