What art thou playing milord? Ye Olde Thread 3.0

[Mackaxx]

Mackaxx: Every one of your posts has caused me to write a fully detailed response to each of your points (1), which I then preview, reread, and delete because it becomes obvious that you are in large part trolling and thus a large argument simply shits up the thread.

In your last post, you quoted a concise summary of my argument, said you understood it, and said that it is true (2). Therefore there is nothing left to discuss.

No they arn't (1) and no I didn't do that alone (2).

But yes, given I'm getting the same response all the time I'm not sure there is much to amicably chat about anyways.

Similarly, regarding mini games, the burden is on you to explain how the shitty mini games in JRPGs are a horrible genre-specific trait while the shitty mini games in western RPGs are not. It's immaterial which one has more or worse mini games; they both have plenty, and they both have quality games with little to no mini game presence.

The burden is on neither of us, almost anyone with even a passing interest in these genres can make up there on mind, and in the end this is being written for me, you and anyone that cares to read. I'm especially confident that the casual reader will probably agree that JRPGs have more stupid mini games than most other genres of games, I wasn't seriously asking you to compile such a list as I would have thought any reasonable individual would simply nod and say fair enough, you're absolutely right mackaxx. Because I am.

[burnt hound]

http://kotaku.com/5313745/bioshock-2-delay...ne=true&s=x

Crap on a stick. Bioshock 2 delayed to 2010. Argh.

[Muttering Bill]

We finally decided to spend some time leveling and crafting in Infinite Undiscovery so we could finish the stupid game.

And stupid is the best word for the whole thing. It was the worst JRPG I have played for this generation of consoles. And I generally love JRPGs, but this one was just awful. The ending made me want to throw things at my TV.

but Infinite Undiscovery would have been a better game without the last 5 min or so of the ending. The story was just so bad start to finish. But at least it is over and I never will feel the need to play it again.

I made it about an hour into IU, then promplty traded it in. I didn't even get out of the prison, so I can't say anything about the story. But the combat system was dreadful. Probably the worst JRPG I've ever played (not that I'm a great authority on them).

Well, I'm taking a little break from The Last Remnant - not because I've stopped enjoying it. I'm nearly finished with disc one as far as the main story goes. I've still got about 35 side missions to clean up before I do the last mission though.

I'm now in the process of working through Point Lookout for Fallout 3 - easily the best DLC they've put out for it. There's a huge area to explore, interesting developments in the main quest (though I'm still not really sure what the point is yet), and I even found a side mission.

I also downloaded N+, because it was on sale and I had an extra $5. It's a bit frustrating on certain levels, but generally a fun game.

The gf has also gotten into playing 1 vs 100. It's nice to finally have a game that she'll play with me for more than 5 or 10 minutes.

[haLobEnder]

Got onto Chapter III of The Witcher after what felt like 15 years. Lots of fun, but still an awful amount of running around like a lemon doing jobs for people and levelling up until you're tough enough to face the next part of the adventure. I know they're using the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine but they could possibly have made things a little different from the other BioWare/Obsidian RPGs out there.

Pretty sure The Witcher is actually running on an upscaled version of the original Neverwinter Nights engine. (Aurora?)

The burden is on neither of us, almost anyone with even a passing interest in these genres can make up there on mind, and in the end this is being written for me, you and anyone that cares to read. I'm especially confident that the casual reader will probably agree that JRPGs have more stupid mini games than most other genres of games, I wasn't seriously asking you to compile such a list as I would have thought any reasonable individual would simply nod and say fair enough, you're absolutely right mackaxx. Because I am.

In general I prefer Western RPGs to JRPGs (with the odd exception). That said, if there are more crappy minigames in JRPGs it's only by virtue of their being more JRPGs out there to begin with.

At least the last three Bioware games (KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect) had less-than-stellar mini-games, and I found many of Fable 2's to be pretty bad as well. I'm certain there are many more examples out there, but those are a few that stick out for me.

I made it about an hour into IU, then promplty traded it in. I didn't even get out of the prison, so I can't say anything about the story. But the combat system was dreadful. Probably the worst JRPG I've ever played (not that I'm a great authority on them).

By your own words you didn't give the game much of a chance. I'm almost certain that after an hour's worth of gameplay one has already escaped the prison; I don't see how you can describe it as 'the worst RPG you've ever played' when you've played such a small fraction of the game.

To be honest I don't even recall the combat system of the game, which means it wasn't memorable enough for me to give it praise or spark my ire. Certainly if we're talking bad combat systems though, The Last Remnant's has been mentioned in far more reviews.

I'm not the biggest fan of IU, but to say it's 'the worst' JRPG out there is sort of, well, just wrong.

[BlueRose]

I'm not the biggest fan of IU, but to say it's 'the worst' JRPG out there is sort of, well, just wrong.

It's not wrong at all. I wholeheartedly think it is the worst JRPG of this generation of consoles. It's the worst one that Goalie and I have played between the two of us, and we play a LOT of JRPGs.

[haLobEnder]

It's not wrong at all. I wholeheartedly think it is the worst JRPG of this generation of consoles. It's the worst one that Goalie and I have played between the two of us, and we play a LOT of JRPGs.

Seriously now, the worst?

Not that saying that it's the worst JRPG of this generation is really saying much in truth. What JRPGs have really been of outstanding quality recently? Valkyria Chronicles is the only one on a current generation system that springs to mind.

[Humble Asskicker]

Look, theres no arguments form me that xenogears is a decent game. But just because there is a fancy manual you can get with a nice shiny cover and lots of pretty pictures and descriptions of stuff doesn't automatically up the cred scale.

Indeed. A game should speak for itself. But I use the Perfect Works in support of the game in the sense of how much depth is hidden behind what is shown (a la Hemingway). Sure, some stats are given, and there are plenty of pictures (there are no walkthroughs though). But there's still around 200k text in there, and stats are only a small portion.

Mostly what is recounted are descriptions of the world, the plotting of the six episodes that were to comprise the series, and various info that was hinted out in the game but not outright revealed. Also a lot of production info, and even some tongue-in-cheek bits on what happens to the characters post-game. There's a lot more to the book than what your post suggests.

But in the end yes, there are of course good JRPGs, I'm not saying that they arn't, I've been more pointing out that some people seem to turn a blind eye to their flaws whilst sticking the boot into some very solid examples of other genres for some fairly silly reasons.

I agree. Some people love a genre, and love can blind. I feel that way when people praise games like Morrowind. They acclaim it for its art and beauty (and some, to the despair of all that's good and healthy in life, acclaim it for its story). They seem to overlook the brutally incompetent combat and the character interaction that is about as stimulating and vivacious as a browse through wikipedia.

Some people actually find the crap preferable (there are those who think FFT sucks, but FFX-2 is like wicked sugoi, or whatever fucking parlance goes through the vacant minds of that lot).

Mind you, it doesn't bother me when people have different opinions, even people who have the temerity to like FFX-2 over FFT, or Morrowind over Planescape. But I would prefer if their reasons were clearly and honestly stated (eg "I like execrable wash that doesn't hurt my head too much thinking about it over dense and stimulating stories that might even challenge my perceptions"), rather than erecting weak and laughable defenses for their game of choice.

I hope that didn't come off as condescending to anyone.

[Le Communard]

Mind you, it doesn't bother me when people have different opinions, even people who have the temerity to like FFX-2 over FFT, or Morrowind over Planescape. But I would prefer if their reasons were clearly and honestly stated (eg "I like execrable wash that doesn't hurt my head too much thinking about it over dense and stimulating stories that might even challenge my perceptions"), rather than erecting weak and laughable defenses for their game of choice.

So as someone whom liked Morrowind, but is interested in expanding his RPG horizons, what is this "Planespace" you speak of?

[Werthead]

Pretty sure The Witcher is actually running on an upscaled version of the original Neverwinter Nights engine. (Aurora?)

It's running on something called 'Aurora 2007' which I assumed was the same as NWN2. However, NWN2 is using a differently-upgraded engine called the Electron which is still built on the Aurora code-base.

So, the two engines (Aurora 07 and Electron) are built on the same base but go off in somewhat different directions. Reminiscent of the Half-Life/Quake 2 engine situation (both based on the Quake engine but going off in different directions).

So as someone whom liked Morrowind, but is interested in expanding his RPG horizons, what is this "Planespace" you speak of?

Planescape: Torment, probably the single most critically-acclaimed RPG of all time. I have literally never met anyone who didn't like this game. Maybe a few who thought Baldur's Gate II was more deserving of the title, but that's about it.

Speaking of the books, are they worth a look see?

Yes. The Last Wish was pretty good (the intro to The Witcher recreates one of the stories in the book in CGI). Haven't read the others yet.

[Tyrellius]

Planescape: Torment, probably the single most critically-acclaimed RPG of all time. I have literally never met anyone who didn't like this game. Maybe a few who thought Baldur's Gate II was more deserving of the title, but that's about it.

Another game lost to the teenage angst/rebellion years. Ta.

[Le Communard]

Planescape: Torment, probably the single most critically-acclaimed RPG of all time. I have literally never met anyone who didn't like this game. Maybe a few who thought Baldur's Gate II was more deserving of the title, but that's about it.

Wow, that sounds fascinating. I'll be sure to creak that out as soon as possible--thanks for the recomendation.

[haLobEnder]

It's running on something called 'Aurora 2007' which I assumed was the same as NWN2. However, NWN2 is using a differently-upgraded engine called the Electron which is still built on the Aurora code-base.

So, the two engines (Aurora 07 and Electron) are built on the same base but go off in somewhat different directions. Reminiscent of the Half-Life/Quake 2 engine situation (both based on the Quake engine but going off in different directions).

It's quite surprising on both accounts given how antiquated the engine was even when those games came out. I've never played either game so I don't know if they were able to make vast improvements on the engine, but I hate the original NWN's cookie-cutter houses/items/etc. and the fact that everything is on a flat, level surface.

I got another Oblivion question for people:

SPOILER: Oblivion: Knights of the Nine quest

So I'm at the KotN priory as part of the quest to get all the pieces of the Crusader's armour. What is is I'm supposed to look for here?

Do I have to sleep in the bed or something, because I think I've searched the place pretty thoroughly.

[BlueRose]

Not that saying that it's the worst JRPG of this generation is really saying much in truth. What JRPGs have really been of outstanding quality recently? Valkyria Chronicles is the only one on a current generation system that springs to mind.

Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey are two that I thought were fantastic. Also Eternal Sonata. I really enjoyed Star Ocean as well. Phantasy Star was bad, and Last Remnant has some major technical problems that pretty much ruin the game. But I still think that UI is the worst. I'm mainly talking about story/character here, although UI had terrible voice acting and a bad combat system as well.

[Serious Callers Only]

So as someone whom liked Morrowind, but is interested in expanding his RPG horizons, what is this "Planespace" you speak of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment

If you're going to get it better get the unofficial and official patches too.

The D/L links on the topics there have the archives.

[Durckad]

I agree. Some people love a genre, and love can blind. I feel that way when people praise games like Morrowind. They acclaim it for its art and beauty (and some, to the despair of all that's good and healthy in life, acclaim it for its story). They seem to overlook the brutally incompetent combat and the character interaction that is about as stimulating and vivacious as a browse through wikipedia.

Finally, someone who feels the same way I do about Morrowind. :)

I thought I was alone in the world.

Planescape: Torment, probably the single most critically-acclaimed RPG of all time. I have literally never met anyone who didn't like this game. Maybe a few who thought Baldur's Gate II was more deserving of the title, but that's about it.

That would be me. ;)

Mainly because the actual combat in PS:T really is truly.... well sucky. Especially when compared with the other Infinity Engine games. Even though combat really isn't the point of the game, it still crops up occasionally and it's usually annoying to deal with. BGII is a more well-rounded game experience IMO.

Still, Planescape is a great game, with a great story, and the way you interact with the NPC's and the environment is really, truly cool and still hasn't been matched by later games.

[haLobEnder]

Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey are two that I thought were fantastic. Also Eternal Sonata. I really enjoyed Star Ocean as well. Phantasy Star was bad, and Last Remnant has some major technical problems that pretty much ruin the game. But I still think that UI is the worst. I'm mainly talking about story/character here, although UI had terrible voice acting and a bad combat system as well.

I liked both ToV and LO but nothing in my mind makes them outstanding games.

There's yet to be a JRPG this generation that could match the likes of Mass Effect, Fallout 3, or Bioshock in terms of quality.

I say that as a JRPG fan. I hope we do get to see a truly outstanding JRPG this generation, but so far we haven't.

I find it funny that you criticize IU's story when --as I've argued in the past-- IU and ToV have some very similar plot points. That's the crux of my problem with JRPGs lately, with few exceptions they all seem content on just cannibalizing the exact same plot and setting.

[Le Communard]

If you're going to get it better get the unofficial and official patches too.

The D/L links on the topics there have the archives.

Wow, thanks that looks like I'd be a little lost without it.

[BlueRose]

I find it funny that you criticize IU's story when --as I've argued in the past-- IU and ToV have some very similar plot points. That's the crux of my problem with JRPGs lately, with few exceptions they all seem content on just cannibalizing the exact same plot and setting.

Maybe parts of the plot are similar, I guess. But ToV does it a million times better. ToV is compelling, I cared about the characters, I thought the characters had great backgrounds, story, motives, and personalities.

In IU, there are 30+ half developed characters and at the end I still couldnt remember half their names, and didnt care. Plus Capell is a whiny moron and spends half the game being emo. I found it particularly amusing that when Capell was pouting, his emotes for his special moves in battle were said in an angry voice.

I'll note that Edge in Star Ocean also goes emo for a while, but I think his motive for doing so is better, and his reason for snapping out of it is MUCH better.

The scene in UI where

SPOILER: UI scene about 2/3rds through

Capell stops being emo because he and Aya have sex

was the point that I put IU down for months. I couldnt handle it anymore.

It might not be the worst game, but I cant think of one redeeming quality.

[Relic]

I got 30 hours into Lost Odyssey and literally fell asleep.

Done with that game and moving on to Tales of Vesperia. You've created a monster Mel.

[BlueRose]

Good choice! :D Hopefully you'll like it!