Boarders Writing a Novel Thread 3

[MattL86]

You already have quite a few volunteers but if you are looking for more you can add me to your list. It sounds like a style I would enjoy so I'll be able to be objective and like/dislike it on quality alone. Also, fifty pages won't take long at all.

[Alaerien]

Great! I think I'm all set now. Everyone whose email address I have should have the first 50 pages in their inbox, and everyone else should have a PM. Thanks, everybody. I look forward to your thoughts. :)

[Zoë Sumra]

Received and will feed back shortly. :)

[SerNotAppearingOnThisBoard]

First time poster here, but I've been lurking for quite a while (as referenced by my handle). This thread caught my interest enough to start posting. Seems like there's some interesting stuff here.

I've been working on something off and on for some years, and it finally got going last October. Currently, it stands at about 350 pages/130K words, and it's perhaps halfway done. If I were to describe it, it's a combination of Discworld (narrative style), ASOIAF (gray morality, complexity of plot -- that's been a real bitch), and Tolkien-style conlanging (I'm considering pursuing a master's degree in linguistics), with a Central/South Asian flavor and slight influences of Hindu mythology against a background of lost technology and long-forgotten space-travel. In other words, it's fantasy, but I've been trying to subvert or twist up as many of the tropes that pop up along the way.

Things I've been trying to work with:

• Avoiding prophecy/destiny: Characters all have personal connections to the events, but none of them are "chosen" for anything (except perhaps by themselves), and just deal what they're dealt, to varying effect

• Unique fantasy races: No elves or dwarves. There are cave and forest-dwelling societies, but I've tried to deconstruct the concepts as far as I can take them with regard to the biology and culture of species that would actually be a race of miners, or a race of tree-dwellers, and the result has so far looked more like monkeys and Morlocks than elves and dwarves. I do have orcs (or a variant thereof), because I think orcs get short-shrifted far too often, so mine aren't bad guys. :)

• The magic system is based on a combination of current research into dark matter and the quantum consciousness theory

Basic plot: A land that has not seen a proper king for centuries and has pretty much decayed into a countrywide slum gets invaded by what appear to be flesh-eating demons. Our heroes meet quite by chance and get sucked into putting together the pieces of a thousand-year-old mystery after they stumble across some ancient artifact that might be the key to restoring some semblance of civilization to this wasteland.

It doesn't have a title yet, since I'm really bad with titles. :P

[The Drill]

First time poster here, but I've been lurking for quite a while (as referenced by my handle). This thread caught my interest enough to start posting. Seems like there's some interesting stuff here.

I've been working on something off and on for some years, and it finally got going last October. Currently, it stands at about 350 pages/130K words, and it's perhaps halfway done. If I were to describe it, it's a combination of Discworld (narrative style), ASOIAF (gray morality, complexity of plot -- that's been a real bitch), and Tolkien-style conlanging (I'm considering pursuing a master's degree in linguistics), with a Central/South Asian flavor and slight influences of Hindu mythology against a background of lost technology and long-forgotten space-travel. In other words, it's fantasy, but I've been trying to subvert or twist up as many of the tropes that pop up along the way.

Things I've been trying to work with:

• Avoiding prophecy/destiny: Characters all have personal connections to the events, but none of them are "chosen" for anything (except perhaps by themselves), and just deal what they're dealt, to varying effect

• Unique fantasy races: No elves or dwarves. There are cave and forest-dwelling societies, but I've tried to deconstruct the concepts as far as I can take them with regard to the biology and culture of species that would actually be a race of miners, or a race of tree-dwellers, and the result has so far looked more like monkeys and Morlocks than elves and dwarves. I do have orcs (or a variant thereof), because I think orcs get short-shrifted far too often, so mine aren't bad guys. :)

• The magic system is based on a combination of current research into dark matter and the quantum consciousness theory

Basic plot: A land that has not seen a proper king for centuries and has pretty much decayed into a countrywide slum gets invaded by what appear to be flesh-eating demons. Our heroes meet quite by chance and get sucked into putting together the pieces of a thousand-year-old mystery after they stumble across some ancient artifact that might be the key to restoring some semblance of civilization to this wasteland.

It doesn't have a title yet, since I'm really bad with titles. :P

First time post on this thread. It's interesting I came to the end of this thread and saw your description, because for me it really stands out. Your plot, setting, and world-building sound great. Combining elements of Pratchett and Martin can only be a good thing IMO. Using a Central Asian theme definitely would be refreshing from all the same old tired European medieval cliches.

I did National Novel Writing Month last year and wrote a novel based in feudal Japan/21st Century Japan (it's kind of a reincarnation fantasy tale) and had a blast doing that. From my experience with research, it can sometimes consume more time than actually writing the story. That can be a good thing and a bad thing.

Anyway, good luck!

[Alaerien]

Hi and welcome, Ser! :)

If I were to describe it, it's a combination of Discworld (narrative style), ASOIAF (gray morality, complexity of plot -- that's been a real bitch), and Tolkien-style conlanging (I'm considering pursuing a master's degree in linguistics), with a Central/South Asian flavor and slight influences of Hindu mythology against a background of lost technology and long-forgotten space-travel.

Using a Central Asian theme definitely would be refreshing from all the same old tired European medieval cliches.

I did National Novel Writing Month last year and wrote a novel based in feudal Japan/21st Century Japan (it's kind of a reincarnation fantasy tale) and had a blast doing that. From my experience with research, it can sometimes consume more time than actually writing the story. That can be a good thing and a bad thing.

That's fascinating. I admire people who can create or adapt unusual settings. :)

For myself, I hate world-building, and I fear that any depiction of a setting I haven't personally experienced would be inauthentic. Even if I did a ridiculous amount of research I'm not confident that I could fully capture the flavour of another setting. Since authenticity is beyond my reach, I like to take that cliched medieval fantasy setting as my starting point - it's familiar, it seems believable (which is not the same as actually being authentic or accurate) to readers raised on Jordan and Goodkind, and it takes basically no work. The fun is in giving that setting an unusual twist.

Just a different perspective on world-building from someone who'd much rather character-build. :P

edit: Oh! I forgot a key part of world-building for IRONBANE. The novel started out as fanfiction for a very well-known epic fantasy series. When I rewrote as original fiction, I had to translate highly recognisable world-building concepts from the well-known epic fantasy series into the new setting. Happily, thus far nobody has noticed, so I hope I won't be sued by the estate of the well-known epic fantasy author. :P

[Arthmail]

Hi and welcome, Ser! :)

That's fascinating. I admire people who can create or adapt unusual settings. :)

For myself, I hate world-building, and I fear that any depiction of a setting I haven't personally experienced would be inauthentic. Even if I did a ridiculous amount of research I'm not confident that I could fully capture the flavour of another setting. Since authenticity is beyond my reach, I like to take that cliched medieval fantasy setting as my starting point - it's familiar, it seems believable (which is not the same as actually being authentic or accurate) to readers raised on Jordan and Goodkind, and it takes basically no work. The fun is in giving that setting an unusual twist.

Just a different perspective on world-building from someone who'd much rather character-build. :P

edit: Oh! I forgot a key part of world-building for IRONBANE. The novel started out as fanfiction for a very well-known epic fantasy series. When I rewrote as original fiction, I had to translate highly recognisable world-building concepts from the well-known epic fantasy series into the new setting. Happily, thus far nobody has noticed, so I hope I won't be sued by the estate of the well-known epic fantasy author. :P

Just remember, David Gemmell had the most basic world building imaginable, and his books were not only well recieved, but very popular. There is no reason to think that world building will make or break your novel, just as "unique" settings are not a sure fire way to attract a loyal fan base. GRRM took your standard fantasy setting and made something of a masterpiece, and there is little blowback against what some might consider the same old same old. China Mieville has unique settings, and they bore me to fucking death with their outlandishness. It all comes down to the story, the world is just the setting. The whip cream on your chocolate cake, if you will.

I have recieved my first rejection letter for my book, and while it was only a form letter, i imagine that it came about because i am trying to sell a book that makes people afraid. The first of four books clocks in at 206,000 words, which is 35k less than my last redraft, which was itself the bastard baby of me having cut my original work in half. Meaning that initially my book was 350k or more in length. I will continue to look for agents, though if anyone wants to give my query letter and synopsis a read i would appreciate it, while i start up a new book.

I have several on the go, but i have decided to focus on two. The one i am currently working on is based in the same world as my fantasy epic, as it seems such a waste to ignore all of my very extensive world building in favor of starting something in a new world. It will occur in the months, or perhaps year, leading up to the opening of my first or second novel, i haven't fully decided, and will have at least one character and nation only mentioned in my original book, though it will only hint at some of what might be happening in that series. It will be stand alone in my attempt to get under the 150,000 mark.

In brief: Rophen is an island nation, a kingdom of merchants, situated along a vital shipping corridor between the powerful kingdom of Euran (the central nation in my original book), and another continent to the north and east of it. Though nominally ruled by the royal house Tatishan, King Anadad-Nirari is old and feeble, his children grasping. In any case, the kings have only ruled with permission of the Senate, which is comprised of only the most wealthy of merchants.

In Rophen, anything can be purchased. The rule of commerce is the greatest law, and its power holders are the men and women that hold the most wealth. As the nation is poor in resources of its own, it has become famous for two things:(1)Its merchant fleet (2) The Iron Swords - the mercenary army that not only protects the island nation, but is hired out at enormous cost to any willing to pay to have them fight in their wars.

The story will follow Ishtaran Kandalos, former Captain of the Iron Swords nearly crippled in action, turned to scholar and master merchant. He is most famous for his finding of the unique White Glass (capable of being formed into weapons or buildings, it is near impervious, glowing faintly with all of the colors of the rainbow) - but as to how he found out its making is a mystery that he reveals to no one. During the war that crippled his left leg, he also spent three years in a black pit with only one man to keep him sane, Ififos, now his loyal friend and retainer, though Rophen law counts him as a slave. He is an inventor, but no longer a fighter, walking with a cane made of his White Glass, and is commonly thought by many (most notably himself), to be the smartest man in the kingdom.

He is approached by the Inquisition, nominally headed by the royal family but really controlled by the Senate, to investigate a series of murders that might even involve members of the Inquisition. To aid him in his investigation he turns to a few others, beyond Ififos, for help. There is Salmalus oc Khonayan, a brutish thug and enforcer, once a member of the Iron Swords under Ishtaran's command until he was kicked out for hitting another office. Kallanor Tumerl, the Knight of Spears, is from Euran but is losing himself in cups in Rophen. The product of rape, his mother being the respected Lady Chasa Tumerl and his father, Abillar Endrich the Mad King in the North, being a usurper killed by the King of Euran, Duncarn Tuathlin, there are many that consider Kallanor half mad, perhaps even god touched.

So, because my epic is, well, just that, i am moving away into the tighter confines of a single city and focusing not on nation destroying political upheaval, but rather the political machinations within a society predicated on the notion that commerce rules above all else.

It is unique, at least for me, in that i have tried to style Rophen a little bit off of the Assyrians. Very loosely, mind you, and still of course bearing some simularities with more traditional fantasy societies (Rophen is not so far from Euran, a much larger nation, that some bleed off of culture would not have occured), but overall i am trying to give a different feel for how things operate. I am certainly enjoying the character of Ishtaran, and Ififos, who have an easy go relationship that often degenerates into verbal sparring that often leaves others frustrated. In their frustration they will sometimes will reveal things that both men pick up on.

Also, Ishtaran loves his cat, Lady Princess. (tentative, but perhaps some of the cat lovers here will understand. Besides, Ishtaran is eccentric, often making a spectacle of himself in order to get to the truth).

[Myrddin]

I will continue to look for agents, though if anyone wants to give my query letter and synopsis a read i would appreciate it, while i start up a new book.

Jodi Meadows used to be a slush reader for a literary agent and now has a "Query Project" where she critiques two queries a week. I think she low on people submitting to her, so if you emailed her now, you could get reviewed in a week or so.

Like I mentioned a few pages back, she critiqued minea few weeks ago. Very helpful. Instructions to submit in the second link.

Even if you don't submit, read through her posts tagged "query project" to get an idea how an agent read queries.

[SerNotAppearingOnThisBoard]

Hi and welcome, Ser! :)

That's fascinating. I admire people who can create or adapt unusual settings. :)

For myself, I hate world-building, and I fear that any depiction of a setting I haven't personally experienced would be inauthentic. Even if I did a ridiculous amount of research I'm not confident that I could fully capture the flavour of another setting. Since authenticity is beyond my reach, I like to take that cliched medieval fantasy setting as my starting point - it's familiar, it seems believable (which is not the same as actually being authentic or accurate) to readers raised on Jordan and Goodkind, and it takes basically no work. The fun is in giving that setting an unusual twist.

Just a different perspective on world-building from someone who'd much rather character-build. :P

edit: Oh! I forgot a key part of world-building for IRONBANE. The novel started out as fanfiction for a very well-known epic fantasy series. When I rewrote as original fiction, I had to translate highly recognisable world-building concepts from the well-known epic fantasy series into the new setting. Happily, thus far nobody has noticed, so I hope I won't be sued by the estate of the well-known epic fantasy author. :P

The non-European elements have come rather easily for me, because of my background and where I've traveled. The world-building's been mostly stable for years, actually. I had this idea a very long time ago. Then I went to college and didn't have much to time to work on side-projects. Now that I'm working on it again, I've been spending far more time on character sketches and plot, with most world-building being the occasional bit of conlanging to come up with a good swear word or snippet of prayer or something. Since this is my first entry into this world, I can alter the extant world to suit the characters' backgrounds without contradicting previously established information. :D If I ever see this get published and write anything else in this setting, that'll be another constraint.

And I would think that "world-building concepts" would be pretty generic, high-level categories like culture, religion, and language if you choose to go that way, but maybe you mean something different. :P Your preview looks interesting.

[SerNotAppearingOnThisBoard]

First time post on this thread. It's interesting I came to the end of this thread and saw your description, because for me it really stands out. Your plot, setting, and world-building sound great. Combining elements of Pratchett and Martin can only be a good thing IMO. Using a Central Asian theme definitely would be refreshing from all the same old tired European medieval cliches.

I did National Novel Writing Month last year and wrote a novel based in feudal Japan/21st Century Japan (it's kind of a reincarnation fantasy tale) and had a blast doing that. From my experience with research, it can sometimes consume more time than actually writing the story. That can be a good thing and a bad thing.

Anyway, good luck!

Thanks! I'm trying to see if I can make it humorous but at the same time have some sense of realism. The world itself is in a pretty dark place, so the pure clash of moods in places has gotten...interesting. We'll see where this stands this November and maybe I'll use 2010 NNWM to knock out the last 50,000 words.

[Arthmail]

Jodi Meadows used to be a slush reader for a literary agent and now has a "Query Project" where she critiques two queries a week. I think she low on people submitting to her, so if you emailed her now, you could get reviewed in a week or so.

Like I mentioned a few pages back, she critiqued minea few weeks ago. Very helpful. Instructions to submit in the second link.

Even if you don't submit, read through her posts tagged "query project" to get an idea how an agent read queries.

Nice, thanks.

[Zoë Sumra]

Well. I'm now back from Eastercon (with a horrible cold), at which my first 5000 words (6000 actually as 5000 would have left it mid-scene) were looked at by the writing group.

Lots of positive feedback. One guy didn't like it at all; other than that, merit was found in it. Lots of things I need to fix (some mistakes, some cases where I'd not explained something properly, etc.), and a few people felt I'd been watching too much Battlestar Galactica in that it felt slightly derivative, but I'm generally feeling very good about it.

However, the word count issue came up. I mentioned that the third edit was finished at 202K (I finished typing it up last Wednesday), at which the words "snowball's chance in hell" were not mentioned but might as well have been. Apparently, in the USA 120K is the ideal nowadays, though 150K is permissible in the UK. As my third edit, the one that was meant to remove extraneous words (as opposed to extraneous paragraphs and chapters), didn't even take RD below 200K, I'm less and less convinced that the book will go below 175K without major surgery, let alone down to 150K.

I am therefore looking a lot more closely at the possibility of chopping the whole thing in half. There's a lovely spot almost exactly halfway through where both the antagonists and protagonists' plot arcs shift a lot in tone and pace, so it'd be a decent place to cut. Major problems; I'm not sure enough has happened by that point to justify the first half being a book (though this isn't exactly unheard of), it'd be rather a downer ending (though this isn't unheard of either), it wouldn't feel complete (but first books in series often aren't... having something with a completeness vibe even as the first book was just something I really wanted to do) and the subplots would all want rewriting to balance them out between the books, to make them significant enough in terms of content in each half to be included in both books, or, possibly, to shift them entirely into one book or the other.

Also managed to get an introduction to a Gollancz editor who told me to contact her post-con, so I'm going to do that and see what happens...

[Ebenstone]

My most recent rewrite of Winter's Discord got whittled down from 99k to 83k, but keep in mind it's intended audience is young adult, so 99k would be really, really upper level for my work.

Word counts are tricky, but I'd say if you've written something that's over 150k, it's a hard sell...however, it can be done.

Here's the book "blurb" for Winter's Discord

Fifteen-year-old Ben Grange is the third son of a powerful duke. He spends his days carousing and avoiding responsibility, but dreams of something greater. When an attempt is made on his life, a strange and powerful magic awakens within him, reflecting the dark omens plaguing the Kingdom of Galidan. Perhaps he can become the hero he always dreamt he could be.

Sent to foster with his father’s best friend, Ben enters an even more dangerous world: the royal court. Seduced by the promise of glory, Ben aligns himself with a group of cads known as the Third Sons, alienating his closest friends with his smug and obnoxious behavior. While he struggles to control the power building within him, his friends are left alone to deal with questions of loyalty, friendship, responsibility and isolation.All they know and love may be coming to an end - because of Ben.

[Alaerien]

Eastercon sounds very exciting, Eloisa! I'm waiting to hear how things go with the Gollancz editor. :)

I've been evaluating all the great feedback I've received - separating each critique into elements (characterisation, world-building, etc) and then sorting the whole lot so I can see what different people made of the same element. I received feedback from 6-7 people, including two of my published friends, and I feel very lucky to have received so much great critique. :)

Currently I'm editing the middle of the book. Total wordcount has dipped worryingly below 75k. :uhoh:

[Zoë Sumra]

Alaerien - it was very exciting, but thanks to me being knocked out ill since then I've done no more work to the book. :worried: I've done some more background reading, but am still a very long way from sure that the first half of this is going to have 1) a coherent plot (as opposed to a collection of things that happen), which is 2) attached to the overarching plot of the whole thing. And I'm tied up all weekend, gaah. I took today working from home because my chest was aching too much to stand the journey to the office, and the temptation to bunk off is rather high. Damnable work-ethic.

You really surprise me when you say Ironbane's word count is below 75K. The 13,000 words you sent me seemed to have quite a way to go to reach their conclusion, even though your pace was high.

It may not matter at all. Novels lengthened over the 1990s and have started to shrink again (as the cost of paper has risen...); recall that Heart of Darkness is 30K and Mrs Dalloway is 65K. The publisher's problem, I'd imagine, is selling it as a worthwhile buy for the same price as a longer book; shorter book = bigger profits...

[Alaerien]

Alaerien - it was very exciting, but thanks to me being knocked out ill since then I've done no more work to the book. :worried: I've done some more background reading, but am still a very long way from sure that the first half of this is going to have 1) a coherent plot (as opposed to a collection of things that happen), which is 2) attached to the overarching plot of the whole thing. And I'm tied up all weekend, gaah. I took today working from home because my chest was aching too much to stand the journey to the office, and the temptation to bunk off is rather high. Damnable work-ethic.

Aww. :( I hope you feel better soon, and I'm sure the first half (and the novel as a whole) will come together beautifully. Socks will be knocked off! :)

You really surprise me when you say Ironbane's word count is below 75K. The 13,000 words you sent me seemed to have quite a way to go to reach their conclusion, even though your pace was high.

I'm a traumatised survivor of a 220,000-word trainwreck, so I've become fanatical about tight writing. IRONBANE has a single viewpoint, a strict outline and a very limited cast - I can only count eleven characters in the entire novel. I do have plans to add more chapters, and I hope the wordcount will go back up. 80-90k would be fine.

[Flying Halftrak]

Regarding word count - does anyone know how many words some of the more recent debuts were? More specifically, I'm particularly curious about The Name of the Wind, The Lies of Locke Lamora, etc. Or even less high-profile works like Canticle, or something.

[Zoë Sumra]

According to Joe Abercrombie writing on an agent's blog:

"The Blade Itself is about 190,000 words, Tom Lloyd's Stormcaller I reckon to be about the same, and Scott Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora is probably a bit longer than either. The most successful fantasy debut of last year, Pat Rothfuss' Name of the Wind, is longer yet. I'd guess it's pushing quarter of a million. David Anthony Durham's Acacia I haven't a copy of, but Amazon says it's near 600 pages. In trade. Looking on the sci-fi side, David Louis Edelman's Infoquake is over 400 pages in trade - I'd be surprised if that makes it much under 150,000 words. That's a lot of successful debut authors, including 4 nominees out of 6 for the Campbell award, writing pretty whacking big books."

These are the exception rather than the rule, and I'd point out that certainly The Blade Itself was picked up directly by the publisher rather than going via an agent.

A first time author needs to remove as many barriers to publication as possible; don't submit a manuscript handwritten in green ink on lined paper, don't send an SFF novel to a house or agent that deals only with literary fiction, and don't give an agent an excuse to reject a novel unseen on the basis of word count. The rise of the perfectly crafted query letter is evidence of how competitive publication is nowadays - the agents cannot read even the first page of everything they receive, so the book may be rejected at the covering letter stage - and if the covering letter says 200K, the whole package'll be filed under B.

[Flying Halftrak]

No argument, but shouldn't the "perfectly crafted query letter" be able to entice the agent to want to read the work regardless of word count?

I recognize that having a shorter manuscript can only improve your odds, while a longer one lengthens them. I'm just musing to myself. Seems to me that while you should always try and pare down your work, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still try and shop your 200,000 word manuscript around and see where it gets you, if that's what you wrote and what the story demanded. A very strong query letter, and most importantly, very strong writing with a strong story can make any agent/editor get over his/her preconcieved notions.

[Zoë Sumra]

It's not all about the agent or editor's notions, though; it's about what s/he can reasonably expect to sell. The agent, if an author uses one, has to sell it to an editor; the editor has to sell it as a concept to the rest of the publishing company, including marketing and finance, and if you look at the average range of SFF MMPBs on a bookshop's bookshelf, they all cost the same to purchase no matter how long they are.

A 200K book doesn't cost twice as much to print as a 100K book, but it isn't far off. It does cost twice as much to store and distribute. (I don't know, but I'd guess, that the marketing and other costs would be the same for each unless more "attention" were being paid to one than the other.) A totally untried author, with no established fanbase, is always a financial risk; said untried author is less of a financial risk the smaller the book is, because the cost of printing the book and storing it afterwards is a lot less. Bookshops like smaller books too; they can stock two 100K books in the same shelf space as one 200K book, so they're more likely to order more copies of shorter books. These long first novels mentioned here had to sell nearly twice as many copies to get to the same place on the publishing house's financial statements as their shorter brethren. Of course, TBI, TLOLL and TNOTW did sell well, but that doesn't discount them being a massive risk before they were published.

Basically - if you want to be published and don't just want to hack away in your attic forever sharing your work online only, there's no point having the most brilliant, unique idea in the world if you can't sell it, and there's no point in having the world's most dedicated agent who's totally in love with the book if that agent can't sell it. Word count is a part of that. I utterly hate this, as evidenced by my having written a 202K polished manuscript, but there comes a point where even I have to be realistic and either cut or chop in half.

There's also, though, the argument that a high word count is indicative of inability either to censor one's prose or to censor one's ideas, hence it's indicative of a quality issue. (I find the ideas censorship part harder, hence why 1) I never write short stories, and 2) my "space opera trilogy" as originally floated is turning into a seven-to-nine book series.) In contrast stands the argument that no one should never write for publication, and hence if you want to write a big unpublishable book you should just do so: but I've been been doing this for seventeen years, and really want to start sharing the stories. :ohwell: