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Werthead

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

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Someone want to give me the basic rundown on this theory and those related to it, the diffrent viewpoints, the evidence to support said viewpoints ect. I have a fairly good idea of my opinion right now, but I can't really back up said opinion. At least not very well. So could someone just give it a brief overview?

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Three summaries:

http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chris...ws_parents.html

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1265708

Evidence doesn't exist, it's all interpretation. Though some arguments come often in R+L=J :

  • Lyanna's bed of blood
  • Eddard's promise
  • Dany's vision of a blue rose on a wall of ice
  • Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna and subsequent kidnapping
  • The unlikeliness of Eddard to have screwed anyone before marriage
  • etc

Too lazy to do a real summary

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There's also Jon's seemingly inexplicable comment that black "was always [his] color." :dunno:
How is it an argument? You're not saying that Jon actually knows the truth of his birth or that Targaryens are genetically attracted to black or that Ned always made him wear black, or that Black is a sort of exclusive Targaryen colour... are you?

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How is it an argument? You're not saying that Jon actually knows the truth of his birth or that Targaryens are genetically attracted to black or that Ned always made him wear black, or that Black is a sort of exclusive Targaryen colour... are you?

Not that Jon knows anything about anything, just that it could be a hint from GRRM. Foreshadowing, and all that jazz. Just seems like an odd line, otherwise.

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Things that do not make sense in-story strike me as very shoddy writing.

ETA: And if you're willing to accept shoddy writing for the sake of that theory, I don't see how it couldn't mean something like he's been destined for the wall from creation (hey, it's a clear GRRM foreshadowing, and he does join the Watch!)

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Things that do not make sense in-story strike me as very shoddy writing.

I guess its that fact that it doesn't make sense in-story (unless I missed it, and black really was always his color) that leads me to excuse it by saying it was forced in there for some other purpose, like foreshadowing, rather than it simply being shoddy writing. I think GRRM is too good a writer for simply shoddy writing.

ETA: And if you're willing to accept shoddy writing for the sake of that theory, I don't see how it couldn't mean something like he's been destined for the wall from creation (hey, it's a clear GRRM foreshadowing, and he does join the Watch!)

Is it foreshadowing if we know its already going to happen?

I'm not saying this is the linchpin of R + L = J, the links you provided upthread cover those. Its another point. Its piling on. Its another step in the idea that no single line or event proves the theory, but that taken in the aggregate the clues seems to reinforce each other until the theory becomes (to me at least) fairly undeniable.

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it was forced in there for some other purpose, like foreshadowing, rather than it simply being shoddy writing. I think GRRM is too good a writer for simply shoddy writing.
Even if it is the author talking to the readers, it is shoddy writing if it doesn't make sense in-story.

Well anyway nevermind, I don't want to discuss how everything in the book is a R+L=J "foreshadowing" (Jon makes a fire, OMG, R+L=J foreshadowing). If you're dedicated enough, you can turn anything into that, and so you become the equivalent of Eco's Diabolicals.

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One of my biggest fears is that GRRM will do a "Lost" and change the plot because so many people sussed his original intention (or because a lot of people, for reasons I don't understand, would be really disappointed if it turned out to be the case). If he does that, then the whole thing could become a complete mess!

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Remember to ask yourself how many Martin readers have even contemplated R+L = J

A lot of people here know about it but I suspect that's down to reading about it in these debates. In my case it didn't occur to me at all and I re-read all four books before I discovered this board. It's strongly supported here and in parts of Martin fandom but outside of that I can't see why the casual ASOIAF-reading fanbase would have come up with it themselves. After all, it's pretty fucking out there at first glance and while there are hints, allusions and clear problems with Eddard's story there isn't actually any concrete evidence for it four books in.

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so many people sussed his original intention
Whoa whoa WHOA, who are you to say that R+L=J is GRRM's "original intention"?

That's one thing really dislikeable about a lot of proponents of this theory, that attitude of treating it as if it was canon when it's only in their imagination so far. Say you prefer it, say you'd be disappointed if it turned differently, say it makes the most sense to you, but don't say it's a fact.

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Question: Even if Jon is R+L, what are the odds it will have any significance in the books? Couldn't GRRM just end it with no one ever learning/already assuming his parentage in world?

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Question: Even if Jon is R+L, what are the odds it will have any significance in the books? Couldn't GRRM just end it with no one ever learning/already assuming his parentage in world?

It's impossible to know for sure at the moment of course. But if we had to make a judgment right now, then (if R+L=J is true) yes, it would not really have overmuch significance to the assumed plot imo. Jon is already quite important enough as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and being Targaryen, bastard-born or legitimate, doesn't really mean much in practical terms for the war for the dawn. I would say the "dragon blood" might matter in the fight but it appears Dany is that prophesied figure so Jon's blood would be irrelevant.

And while GRRM has said we the readers will learn of Jon's parentage, I don't recall him saying Jon or any of the characters who don't already know will learn of it.

However, GRRM has said Howland Reed knows too much of the central mystery of the book for us to meet him early on in the series. Of course, Howland Reed could know about something else that is the central mystery but it seems more than a bit possible it is Jon's parentage. The "central mystery" should have some importance within the books, I'm thinking.

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Remember to ask yourself how many Martin readers have even contemplated R+L = J

A lot of people here know about it but I suspect that's down to reading about it in these debates. In my case it didn't occur to me at all and I re-read all four books before I discovered this board. It's strongly supported here and in parts of Martin fandom but outside of that I can't see why the casual ASOIAF-reading fanbase would have come up with it themselves. After all, it's pretty fucking out there at first glance and while there are hints, allusions and clear problems with Eddard's story there isn't actually any concrete evidence for it four books in.

Having seen that Martin will publish the Dunk and Egg story in Warriors next year and that story is titled "The Mystery Knight", me thinks the next big piece to that puzzle will be there. I'm just saying....

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Having seen that Martin will publish the Dunk and Egg story in Warriors next year and that story is titled "The Mystery Knight", me thinks the next big piece to that puzzle will be there. I'm just saying....

Well, yes, more historical light will most likely be shed in "The Mystery Knight" but the mystery knight in that Dunk and Egg story will not be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, if that's what you mean. The Dunk and Egg stories so far happen roughly 80 years (I think) prior to the start of Robert's Rebellion :)

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Remember to ask yourself how many Martin readers have even contemplated R+L = J

A lot of people here know about it but I suspect that's down to reading about it in these debates. In my case it didn't occur to me at all and I re-read all four books before I discovered this board. It's strongly supported here and in parts of Martin fandom but outside of that I can't see why the casual ASOIAF-reading fanbase would have come up with it themselves. After all, it's pretty fucking out there at first glance and while there are hints, allusions and clear problems with Eddard's story there isn't actually any concrete evidence for it four books in.

I dare say I thought about it before visiting the forums, and felt pretty sure after doing so. Hard to speculate on a percentage of all readers, of course.

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Hard to speculate on a percentage of all readers, of course.

In an old, unscientific poll, it was found that 51 people did not think of it on their own and 28 did. Link

I would personally up the percentage who did not think of it on their own overall as people who come to an internet forum to discuss the books might be more likely to have put together the theory.

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