The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Chrysee]

I gotta say I did think of it while I was reading. But I read all 4 books right in a row a little over a year ago. I knew nothing about them before that and refused to look up anything on the internet or ask any friends to clarify things while I was reading to avoid spoilers. I thought I was so clever to pick up on that little possibility, until I realized the entire internet already knew. lol But then again I also just assumed the Hound was definitely dead and never gave Alleras a second thought.

[jurble]

I reread a GoT, and I must say, either Lyanna REALLY wanted to be buried in those crypts badly, and really must've been hard on Eddard to accept that for some unknown reason, or there is mischief afoot.

[Errant Bard]

Of course, Howland Reed could know about something else that is the central mystery but it seems more than a bit possible it is Jon's parentage. The "central mystery" should have some importance within the books, I'm thinking.

On the other hand, Howland being acquainted with magic, children of the forest and prophecies, or having sent his children to Bran (and not Jon) makes it more than a bit probable that this "central mystery" would be related to the out-of-whack seasons, the Others and how to correct all that. I mean, what's more central, the impending doom of the whole world, or the past of one character?

[Jon Targaryen]

On the other hand, Howland being acquainted with magic, children of the forest and prophecies, or having sent his children to Bran (and not Jon) makes it more than a bit probable that this "central mystery" would be related to the out-of-whack seasons, the Others and how to correct all that. I mean, what's more central, the impending doom of the whole world, or the past of one character?

Yeah, that's a good point. I suppose he could have some secret knowledge from the Isle of Faces that would be a mystery to the characters.

[Errant Bard]

That's my bet, though it doesn't rule out that a "Prince who was Promised" could be involved in it, and that this prince could (could!) be Jon, considering how idiotically a simple book of propecy (supposedly) could make Rhaegar act. But the PwwP would stay a small benign part of the whole mystery, not the whole of it.

[Jon Targaryen]

I think it's a bit late to make Jon the ptwp unless it's some sort of trifecta with Dany and another character. Or Dany and Jon only. It should include Dany, imo. ... This doesn't really pertain to R+L=J except that Jon doesn't seem to be the ptwp imo.

I guess I should have said in my last post that the "central mystery" could refer to what the readers view as a mystery rather than the characters. But even so, Jon's mother, while a mystery, probably can't really be said to be the central mystery to the average reader.

[the silent speaker]

I mean, what's more central, the impending doom of the whole world, or the past of one character?

THANK you. I have a hunch that the Doom of Valyria ties into it somehow, too.

[bacchys]

I think it's a bit late to make Jon the ptwp unless it's some sort of trifecta with Dany and another character. Or Dany and Jon only. It should include Dany, imo. ... This doesn't really pertain to R+L=J except that Jon doesn't seem to be the ptwp imo.

I don't agree that Jon isn't well positioned to be the PtwP. As Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he's in a central position to oppose the Others, taking the place of the legendary Last Hero. Whether or not that's who Rhaegar thinks the PtwP is supposed to be or what he's supposed to do is, of course, not clear and up for debate.

But, I don't think GRRM dropped the legend of the Last Hero in there willy-nilly or even just as background. While there's much unconventional about ASoIaF insofar as fantasy tales go, this tale is a fantasy story. Among the common themes in such tales are that the past was better (brighter, stronger, more noble) than the present, and that things repeat themselves. If one hero saved the world in the past, then one hero saves it again in the present, as it were. That doesn't mean Jon is that hero, obviously.

I don't think GRRM is necessarily looking to adhere rigidly to this kind of pattern, but neither do I think he's seeking to reinvent fantasy with these books, either (though in part he's accomplishing that anyway).

It's not really a R+L=J point, but it's not unrelated since part this grand discussion is rooted in why Rhaegar would seek to have a child by Lyanna, a guessed-at motive fueled by Danaerys's vision in the House of the Undying.

[IshtarNZ]

It's not really a R+L=J point, but it's not unrelated since part this grand discussion is rooted in why Rhaegar would seek to have a child by Lyanna, a guessed-at motive fueled by Danaerys's vision in the House of the Undying.

I've been away from these boards for a while, so I've missed a big chunk of this debate, although it's fun to see that it still rages on :) (I'm a proponent of this theory, btw). But I think Bacchys has an interesting point here: that Rhaegar *sought* to specifically have a child by Lyanna. It seems that Rhaegar was the sort of person who never did anything without thinking it through (witness Arstan's story about him deciding he had to be a knight), and I doubt that fathering a child on Lyanna was spontaneous either. I'd never really thought of it that way, so it's just another sign to me that the theory is true.

Apologies if this particular point has been made already, as I said, I'm a little out of touch :)

[dragon wolf]

Well, yes, more historical light will most likely be shed in "The Mystery Knight" but the mystery knight in that Dunk and Egg story will not be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, if that's what you mean. The Dunk and Egg stories so far happen roughly 80 years (I think) prior to the start of Robert's Rebellion :)

Yep. The "Mystery Knight" will be young Barristan Selmy, when he earns his nickname "The Bold". Selmy was only 10 when he first entered a tourney as a mystery knight, he was defeated by Duncan.

[3idcrow]

Yep. The "Mystery Knight" will be young Barristan Selmy, when he earns his nickname "The Bold". Selmy was only 10 when he first entered a tourney as a mystery knight, he was defeated by Duncan.

By Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Egg's son.

[dragomort]

Yep. The "Mystery Knight" will be young Barristan Selmy, when he earns his nickname "The Bold". Selmy was only 10 when he first entered a tourney as a mystery knight, he was defeated by Duncan.

...would that make Selmy 90 currently then? Someone who is good on the time-lines needs to chime in! That would be perfect if it's more like 50 (? how old is Selmy supposed to be?) years before the start of the books though. I suppose that means a bit of a time jump, but a young Barristan would have to be worth reading. Is the next one going to be the last Dunk & Egg story, has it been stated yet?

[3idcrow]

...would that make Selmy 90 currently then? Someone who is good on the time-lines needs to chime in! That would be perfect if it's more like 50 (? how old is Selmy supposed to be?) years before the start of the books though. I suppose that means a bit of a time jump, but a young Barristan would have to be worth reading. Is the next one going to be the last Dunk & Egg story, has it been stated yet?

Barristan was 61 when he was dismissed from KG.

[Roza Ahai]

I read somewhere that Jon has been named by Ned. Lyanna did not follow wildings' tradition to give children the names when they are 2 years old. She should give her baby the name after the birth. Might Ned change the baby's name because he had Targ's name?

[Prince of the North]

Yep. The "Mystery Knight" will be young Barristan Selmy, when he earns his nickname "The Bold". Selmy was only 10 when he first entered a tourney as a mystery knight, he was defeated by Duncan.

Ah, yes, good thinking DW! It could be and it would be interesting to read about this if it turns out to be the case :)

...would that make Selmy 90 currently then? Someone who is good on the time-lines needs to chime in! That would be perfect if it's more like 50 (? how old is Selmy supposed to be?) years before the start of the books though. I suppose that means a bit of a time jump, but a young Barristan would have to be worth reading. Is the next one going to be the last Dunk & Egg story, has it been stated yet?

Well, as you say, someone who has a better grasp of the exact timelines than I do may have a better idea on this. My thinking that the events in the Dunk & Egg stories happen roughly 80 years before the start of Robert's Rebellion is very likely off. Maybe it's more like 50 - 60 years? :dunno:

[Jon Targaryen]

Barristan will most likely not be the mystery knight. When Barristan was defeated at the age of 10 as a mystery knight, it was by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies, Egg's son as 3idcrow said.

SPOILER: very minor for TMK

It appears that the general time period for TMK is when Dunk is still a hedge knight and Egg is still a squire. It does not appear it is when Egg has a kid already.

[howland_reed]

Correct me on the details if I'm wrong, but didn't Barristan mention that Rhaegar once dropped all his studies/books of the prophecy, believing that he had to master the sword? I assumed back then that the PtwP is prophesied to be a great swordsman, and as of now, Dany does not fit that description in the least, while Jon is still a candidate.

[King Nobody]

If R+L =/= J then how did Lyanna die?

[Prince of the North]

If R+L =/= J then how did Lyanna die?

Well, that's one of the many questions that's at least plausibly answered by the R+L=J theory, isn't it? ;)

[SFDanny]

Correct me on the details if I'm wrong, but didn't Barristan mention that Rhaegar once dropped all his studies/books of the prophecy, believing that he had to master the sword? I assumed back then that the PtwP is prophesied to be a great swordsman, and as of now, Dany does not fit that description in the least, while Jon is still a candidate.

I don't think you're wrong in that Rhaegar did read a prophecy and thought that it meant he had to become a warrior - slightly different than a "great swordsman" - but the emphasis in that story must be on the word "thought." We don't know the exact wording of the prophecy Rhaegar read, nor do we know if Rhaegar changed his mind about what it meant after the incident you reference. He certainly changed his mind about himself as the PtwP, so it is not out of the question to think he may of changed his mind about the importance of the PtwP receiving military training. Myself, I wouldn't rule either Jon or Dany out as candidates without much more info.