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The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII


Werthead

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The fever did not make her bleed (I assume not at least) it was probably complications with the birth.

I could throw someone in an outhouse then shoot them. They would be covered in poo but that would not be what killed them...

I'm almost proud of how dumb that sounds. I need sleep.

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How'd that make her bleed?

Lots of blood in childbirth.

The most common interpretation by adherents of L+R=J of the facts as we know them concerning Lyanna's death (fever, blood, her isolation in a room with of roses after a prolonged period with Rhaegar, etc.) is that Lyanna dies from complications from childbirth - specifically most likely puerperal fever. She gives birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy, and then she shortly thereafter dies from the loss of blood, and/or the spread of the infection and fever. It fits with the facts as we know them. Other scenarios can be made to fit as well, but L+R=J isn't ruled out by anything we know at the present.

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After. Ned runs away from KL disgusted by Robert, and liberates a few city south. Then he goes to the tower of joy and tells Arthur Dayne & co that Rhaegar is dead, KL fallen and their prince/queen fled with Wilhem Darry. Arthur Dayne tells Ned that Darry is a good man but not of the Kingsguard, 'cause the kingsguard doesn't flee.

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Lots of blood in childbirth.

The most common interpretation by adherents of L+R=J of the facts as we know them concerning Lyanna's death (fever, blood, her isolation in a room with of roses after a prolonged period with Rhaegar, etc.) is that Lyanna dies from complications from childbirth - specifically most likely puerperal fever. She gives birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy, and then she shortly thereafter dies from the loss of blood, and/or the spread of the infection and fever. It fits with the facts as we know them. Other scenarios can be made to fit as well, but L+R=J isn't ruled out by anything we know at the present.

*nods in agreement*

Puerperal fever was common before antibiotics and antiseptics came into use. I would imagine it would be a common cause of death in childbirth in medieval-esque Westeros.

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After. Ned runs away from KL disgusted by Robert, and liberates a few city south. Then he goes to the tower of joy and tells Arthur Dayne & co that Rhaegar is dead, KL fallen and their prince/queen fled with Wilhem Darry. Arthur Dayne tells Ned that Darry is a good man but not of the Kingsguard, 'cause the kingsguard doesn't flee.

Now Dayne was bff with Rhaegar, so he might just be protecting Rhaegar's woman, but the other Kingsguard would imply that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife at least, (they're not compelled to guard royal bastards I assume), and at most, because their crown prince was now in the Tower.

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Now Dayne was bff with Rhaegar, so he might just be protecting Rhaegar's woman, but the other Kingsguard would imply that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife at least, (they're not compelled to guard royal bastards I assume), and at most, because their crown prince was now in the Tower.

Aye. So goes the sub-theory that there was a marriage between R and L. With Jon as King, actually.

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It seems pretty obvious once you think about it. Not only are there three Kingsguard sitting at a tower instead of aiding in battle, but it's the legendary lord commander and the even more legendary Arthur Dayne, who's pretty much got the most street cred of any knight in westeros history (although the third guy is a typical member). They fought to the death to protect a single woman...from her own brother bringing her back home? What the fuck? What was the point of her even being there if Rhaegar was gone? It's all because she was giving birth to the next king (interestingly, Dany's mother died giving birth to her, too).

Rhaegar thought his son would be the prince who was promised. Otherwise he never would have triggered a war.

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they're not compelled to guard royal bastards I assume
They are. In fact, it's one of the things GRRM answers directly about. He said something of the effect "they do whatever Rhaegar told them to". I'll have to fish that from the SSM later, if noone does it first.
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They are. In fact, it's one of the things GRRM answers directly about. He said something of the effect "they do whatever Rhaegar told them to". I'll have to fish that from the SSM later, if noone does it first.

Here is the question and the answer:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

I guess that's that. However, that is lame. The Kingsguard are robotic morons under that construction. I suppose morons may be harsh; they're just robots, doing their orders as well as they can.

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I am a proponent of R+L=J myself but where is Howland Reed. It's entirely possible that Reed went home with "The Child" and Ned did go home with his own son. Nothing in the books remotely suggests this but who knows. I personally hopes for R+L=J because I think it makes the story more dramatic.

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I guess that's that. However, that is lame. The Kingsguard are robotic morons under that construction. I suppose morons may be harsh; they're just robots, doing their orders as well as they can.

People who swear complete and unconditional obedience to other people? They usually do wind up looking a lot like robotic morons, yeah. Complete and unconditional obedience is one of the traits we associate with machines.

But then the question becomes: why did Rhaegar, who we have to assume knew a thing or two about strategy, strand three of the best and most famous knights at his command hundreds of miles from the action? Did he really think that it was more important for them to be guarding the Tower of Joy? Important enough that he was willing to chance the fall of his father on it?

If he did, then why? What was in the Tower of Joy that he was willing to let King's Landing fall for?

I can tell you what it wasn't: Lyanna "hello, I have no political importance whatsoever" Stark.

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Here is the question and the answer:

I guess that's that. However, that is lame. The Kingsguard are robotic morons under that construction. I suppose morons may be harsh; they're just robots, doing their orders as well as they can.

I think you're taking the wrong inference from Martin's quote. I think Martin is saying one of two things with his answer. Either he is just reinforcing what we already know (the kingsguard follows the orders of a royal family member) and side-stepping the question of conflicting oaths - something entirely possible because he doesn't want to get into that problem in this context for fear of revealing too much. Or, and this is the most straightforward interpretation to my mind, he is simply stating that there is no problem of conflicting oaths in this instance. That can only be so if the Kingsguard is both following Rhaegar's orders AND guarding the heir to the throne at the same time. Of course they will follow Rhaegar's order. They have no reason not to do so. They are not being "robotic morons," they are following both the last orders of their beloved dead prince AND they are carrying out the first duty of their oaths to protect their new king.

Martin won't come out and say that explicitly, but that's what makes sense looking at this quote. To think otherwise means Martin has carved out this one scene and exempted it from the theme of conflicting oaths that goes through the whole of his Ice & Fire writings. I think that's the only way to get to seeing the Kingsguard trio as robotic morons.

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I think you're taking the wrong inference from Martin's quote. I think Martin is saying one of two things with his answer. Either he is just reinforcing what we already know (the kingsguard follows the orders of a royal family member) and side-stepping the question of conflicting oaths - something entirely possible because he doesn't want to get into that problem in this context for fear of revealing too much. Or, and this is the most straightforward interpretation to my mind, he is simply stating that there is no problem of conflicting oaths in this instance. That can only be so if the Kingsguard is both following Rhaegar's orders AND guarding the heir to the throne at the same time. Of course they will follow Rhaegar's order. They have no reason not to do so. They are not being "robotic morons," they are following both the last orders of their beloved dead prince AND they are carrying out the first duty of their oaths to protect their new king.

Martin won't come out and say that explicitly, but that's what makes sense looking at this quote. To think otherwise means Martin has carved out this one scene and exempted it from the theme of conflicting oaths that goes through the whole of his Ice & Fire writings. I think that's the only way to get to seeing the Kingsguard trio as robotic morons.

Huh. Well, I think I am looking at the bare bones of the quote and seeing it straightforwardly. I don't think I am making any but the simplest of "inferences", like looking at something blue and saying, "that is blue."

"The KG don't get to make up their own orders." Ergo, they would follow ones that no longer make sense. Namely, of course, the one the question asks about, staying to fight off Ned at the toj, rather than guarding the new King.

It's pretty clear to me the main thrust of the answer is that the KG obey orders almost rigidly. To draw the idea of no "conflicting oaths" into his answer is taking it a bit far. He's not talking about Jaime here. Of course, Martin can't reveal that there is "no conflict" between staying at the toj and guarding the king. I don't think we should assume R+L=J when we look at Martin's answer and then find that it supports R+L=J. That smacks of circular logic, imo, and is one of the reasons the "R+L=J is not canon!" people get pissed off.

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Sam the Slayer, I'm not aware of anything that suggests that Howland Reed left the Tower of Joy with any child.

Blackthrone, if Rhaegar had told the Kings Guard to protect Lyanna, they would do it no matter what. Post 52 above says the KG obey the orders they're given.

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Sam the Slayer, I'm not aware of anything that suggests that Howland Reed left the Tower of Joy with any child.

Blackthrone, if Rhaegar had told the Kings Guard to protect Lyanna, they would do it no matter what. Post 52 above says the KG obey the orders they're given.

They would not protect her over the life of their king and prince though regardless of the order. There is a certain hierarchy in the way they have to prioritize their orders after all. If Aerys wanted delicious waffles made from the fires of Mt Valyria while the Lannister's were coming to the throne room during the sack and those three KG were in the room, would they leave immediately to go on an epic quest to fetch said waffles? I figure they're titled the 'KingsGuard' and not the "Kings Merry 7 Butlers" for a reason. Sure, it's an extreme example, but I think it makes the point clearer....maybe.

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Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

GRRM's answer is interesting for another reason, who did the Kingsguard take their paramount orders from: Rhaegar or Aerys?

I cannot see a scenario w/Joffrey ordering the Kingsguard around while Robert was still alive. Especially in the middle of a war.

Unless the Kingsguard were ordered to protect the Tower of Joy w/Aerys' consent and authority. Which would indicate that even the crazed Aerys knew how important whatever it was in the tower that needed protection.

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