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The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII


Werthead

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Martin's statement sounds to me (and, presumably, to everyone else) like he does not consider Viserys to be the king at this point, although I realize he hasn't yet referred to anyone as king. If the KG's greatest obligation are to protect the royal family and obey their orders, then haven't the three at the Tower of Joy done that if any of the royal family are at the ToJ? There are other KG (and other soldiers) who are not at the Tower of Joy who may well be protecting what is left of the royal family in Kings Landing. The KG's conversation with Ned at the ToJ makes clear that they are aware of what's going on.

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The Silent Speak, who do you think gave the "imprision Lyanna" order if there was one? How does your solution solve the problem?

Rhaegar, one assumes. And it solves the problem because standing outside while Lyanna was dying is a bad job of guarding, as dragomort noted -- as, for that matter, is preventing her brother who loves her from seeing her -- but both things are a good job of imprisoning.

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Maybe there was a midwife at her side? We'll won't know until we get the entire story. Moreover, why wouldn't the Kingsguard just let Eddard in being her brother, consider their order was to "guard Lyanna", why would they fight Eddard, he wasn't about to kill her. But Eddard was a Baratheon-supporter, so if there was a kid inside, then they had to fight Eddard.

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This may be the wrong thread, please move if necessary.

A buddy of mine mentioned that even if R+L=J were true, he would be illegitimate. My first thought was that he was correct. But now, it would seem more likely that they had married, given the precedent for polygamy already set, and the KG was there to protect his wife and child as opposed to keep Lyanna prisoner.

Does that make sense, or is it way off? I don't want to seem simple but I want to get my facts right before I come back with it, I'd rather not have to hear his crap if I am wrong.

Thanks

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A buddy of mine mentioned that even if R+L=J were true, he would be illegitimate. My first thought was that he was correct. But now, it would seem more likely that they had married, given the precedent for polygamy already set, and the KG was there to protect his wife and child as opposed to keep Lyanna prisoner.

Does that make sense, or is it way off? I don't want to seem simple but I want to get my facts right before I come back with it, I'd rather not have to hear his crap if I am wrong.

Jon could be legitimate. Your friend may think Jon is illegitimate, but it is not known. The polygamy, which GRRM specifically said set a currently existing precedent, is a support for your view. This all assumes basic R+L=J in the first place.

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The polygamy, which GRRM specifically said set a currently existing precedent,

Where did he say this? As far as I know the latest polygamy we know of is Maegor the Cruel. The SSM I'm thinking of hinted that he might have to look up or make up whether there were others afterward, so it's not usable to say the precedent is purely old and stale, but that is a far cry from "currently valid precedent".

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Where did he say this? As far as I know the latest polygamy we know of is Maegor the Cruel. The SSM I'm thinking of hinted that he might have to look up or make up whether there were others afterward, so it's not usable to say the precedent is purely old and stale, but that is a far cry from "currently valid precedent".

Perhaps I overstepped myself because I still do only refer to Maegor I but I am not basing my response only on the SSM you reference. There is a later one reproduced in part below.

[Questions concerning Targaryen polygamy.]

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent.

emphasis mine

Here is the link to the SSM in its entirety.

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Okay, I'll buy that. But I think this is equally significant:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons.

So not impossible, but less likely now than in Aegon's and Maegor's day, and IMO increasingly less likely as time goes on (because precedents tend to do that).

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Okay, I'll buy that. But I think this is equally significant:

So not impossible, but less likely now than in Aegon's and Maegor's day, and IMO increasingly less likely as time goes on (because precedents tend to do that).

I agree that what you quoted is important. I would say that if R+L=J is true, and if R married L, and if R had been victorious (lots of ifs!), then Rhaegar would have had to accept that his marriage to Lyanna was invalid and that Jon was a bastard. Especially with a four kingdom rebellion having just happened.

But as for "now", well, dragons are back. And under the control of a Targaryen who may be interested in Jon. I don't want to get too far into speculation but there it is. However, I will mention that if Dany is victorious, she could just legitimize Jon so the marriage is not really necessary.

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It's been a while, but SFDanny still makes the most cogent arguments for why R+L=J is the most likely explanation for things, but also why the J in question is also the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. It's possible that that isn't the case, but from everything I've read over the last few years, it seems to be the one that fits what has been written, as well as what hasn't been written.

Either way, bring on the next book, please.

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Maybe, but Lyanna did make Ned promise her something.

How's this for a crackpot idea - Lyanna calls Ned Lord Eddard - clearly she's being somewhat formal with him - he refers to her as Lya. So, maybe this represents even as she was dying, some sort of resent she held against Ned - first for starting a war when she loved Rhaegar and not Robert, or it represents some sort of formality in that Lyanna is no longer Lyanna Stark, but a Targaryen by marriage.

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As I recall, the "Lord Eddard" phrase Ned remembers turned out to be someone trying to wake Ned up. I don't see why Lyanna would refer to her brother that way. I never got the impression that the siblings were that formal with each other. If the voice Ned heard was that of a servant, it would explain the "Lord Eddard." I doubt that Lyanna would have referred to her brother that way. Ned frequently remembers seeing his sister at the Tower of Joy, but nothing in his frequent memories of that visit suggests that there was any anger between brother and sister at that time.

Ned frequently remembers his encounter with Lyanna, but nothing in that memory ever suggests that she was upset with him as far as I remember.

I can't see how Lyanna would blame Ned for starting the war. Brandon, Aerys and Robert seem to be among those responsible for that.

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I believe in the R+J theory, and I think that there are loads of supporting evidence;

"....bed of blood" In AGoT

Ned needed to tell Jon something,

He has kept a secret for 14 years, which coincidentally is Jon's age at the time.

As previously stated, The blue roses, Dany's vision, etc

The only real evidence against this is that you would think GRRM would know we have come to this conclusion and he would try to twist it in an unexpected way. :smug:

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I believe in the R+J theory, and I think that there are loads of supporting evidence;

"....bed of blood" In AGoT

Ned needed to tell Jon something,

He has kept a secret for 14 years, which coincidentally is Jon's age at the time.

As previously stated, The blue roses, Dany's vision, etc

The only real evidence against this is that you would think GRRM would know we have come to this conclusion and he would try to twist it in an unexpected way. :smug:

I don't think that the idea that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna is really something that the average reader of the series comes to. While it seems to be prevelant among people who frequent this site, it doesn't appear to be something that occurs to everyone here on their own (slightly less than half if I'm remembering the informal poll), and there are more than a number of people who don't think that R+L=J is the case, so I don't think that GRRM would use the idea that some people will come to the conclusion and try to twist it further from there. If most readers aren't aware of this possibility, and then there is further twisting of this possibility, it would leave a lot of readers wondering what just happened? and would be pretty poor writing. Since, from everything I've seen of his writing, both from this series and other works of his, he seems to have it together as a writer, I don't see that happening.

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I don't think that the idea that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna is really something that the average reader of the series comes to. While it seems to be prevelant among people who frequent this site, it doesn't appear to be something that occurs to everyone here on their own (slightly less than half if I'm remembering the informal poll), and there are more than a number of people who don't think that R+L=J is the case, so I don't think that GRRM would use the idea that some people will come to the conclusion and try to twist it further from there. If most readers aren't aware of this possibility, and then there is further twisting of this possibility, it would leave a lot of readers wondering what just happened? and would be pretty poor writing. Since, from everything I've seen of his writing, both from this series and other works of his, he seems to have it together as a writer, I don't see that happening.

I agree, I was just stating that there basically isn't anything against it, so the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory is most likely true.

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