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The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII


Werthead

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I agree, I was just stating that there basically isn't anything against it, so the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory is most likely true.

That's been one of the reasons why I think it is the most likely answer, the fact that there really isn't any evidence (other than Ned saying Jon is his) that makes it impossible. While other answers to the question of Jons parentage could be the final answer, at this point, none of them fits both the facts and the story as well.

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That's been one of the reasons why I think it is the most likely answer, the fact that there really isn't any evidence (other than Ned saying Jon is his) that makes it impossible. While other answers to the question of Jons parentage could be the final answer, at this point, none of them fits both the facts and the story as well.

Exactly.

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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (I haven't read the whole thread), but didn't Catelyn say in AGOT that Jon was the only child besides Arya that looked like Eddard. Why would Jon look like Eddard if Rhaegar and Lyanna were his parents? Sorry I don't have page numbers and actual quotes.

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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (I haven't read the whole thread), but didn't Catelyn say in AGOT that Jon was the only child besides Ayra that looked like Eddard. Why would Jon look like Eddard if Rhaegar and Lyanna were his parents? Sorry I don't have page numbers and actual quotes.

Lyanna was Eddard's sister, and presumably resembled him. Arya is said to look like Lyanna, her aunt. Why can't Jon look like Ned if Ned is his uncle?

Besides, when Cat says that, what she means is that Jon has brown hair, like Ned and Arya but unlike Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon.

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We could be reading more into it than is there. ;)

Nah, I'm sure that either R+L=J or that the misdirection is deliberate: I picked up on the clues with no help, just by reading the books. It seems REALLY unlikely that so many people spontaneously picked up on clues that weren't there. It might be that GRRM is messing with us though.

There is evidence, though not proof. For me, the biggest indicator is Occam's razor. Ned has something to talk to Jon about that he thinks about in place of his other children close to his death. It would take something more than lust, it would seem from our detailed insight into his PoV and others' opinions of him, for Ned to forget his honour. Ned makes a promise to his sister that was hard to keep in some way. Ned has lied and kept secrets in some way. Lyanna had history with Rhaegar to some tiny extent. Lyanna definitely disappeared with Rhaegar. She appeared later, dying in a way that resembles childbirth though other possibilities combining bleeding and fever exist. When she reappeared she was in the company of 3 KG. They were not with any acknowledged members of the Royal family, of whom several were around when they were last seen, including the King who was only protected by the newest KG. Two of the KG there were the Lord Commander and Rhaegar's BFF and accepted Legend Dayne. In Ned's mind, some if not all of these facts are linked, especially his secret/lie and Jon.

It is possible taht there are seperate reasons for all these events, but claiming that is less likely than a feasible theory that links the ideas already linked in Ned's mind, with circumstantial evidence in the text, that has motives and is within our knowledge of the personalities of the characters involved so far as we have seen them and that most importantly has no evidence against it to my knowledge, seems foolish.

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When she reappeared she was in the company of 3 KG. They were not with any acknowledged members of the Royal family, of whom several were around when they were last seen, including the King who was only protected by the newest KG.

At the point she reappeared, at least to any characters we have a POV of, the king (Aerys) was dead, and it was known to the KG that the newest member, Jaime, slew him. They had ample reason to be elsewhere, but only two possible (that I have heard suggested) reasons to be at the Tower of Joy: Orders (although the orders were from a months dead Prince, and there was an unprotected - by their standards, at least - child presumed King in existence, whose protection should supercede any non king) being one, and the other a possible heir to the throne. I lean heavily towards a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna producing an heir as the reason for the Kingsguards presence.

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At the point she reappeared, at least to any characters we have a POV of, the king (Aerys) was dead, and it was known to the KG that the newest member, Jaime, slew him. They had ample reason to be elsewhere, but only two possible (that I have heard suggested) reasons to be at the Tower of Joy: Orders (although the orders were from a months dead Prince, and there was an unprotected - by their standards, at least - child presumed King in existence, whose protection should supercede any non king) being one, and the other a possible heir to the throne. I lean heavily towards a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna producing an heir as the reason for the Kingsguards presence.

I would quibble that we don't actually know that they were as aware of events as Eddard's fever dream makes them appear to be. GRRM has said that the dream is not a literal rendition of what happened, that it is a dream.

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Honestly, who else could he be? Jon is Targaryen by way of Stark. Or, he is Stark by way of "no name" house and jetpack.

Meaning that there are two possibilities. Rhaegar and Lyanna made Jon. Or, Ned had an affair with a woman to many miles away.

Lyanna asked Ned to keep Jon safe because Baratheon was killing every Targaryan man woman and child that he could.

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Honestly, who else could he be? Jon is Targaryen by way of Stark. Or, he is Stark by way of "no name" house and jetpack.

Meaning that there are two possibilities. Rhaegar and Lyanna made Jon. Or, Ned had an affair with a woman to many miles away.

Lyanna asked Ned to keep Jon safe because Baratheon was killing every Targaryan man woman and child that he could.

When re-reading GoT i thought that Ned's fighting with Robert about assasinating Dany seemed slightly too intense. He seems REALLY defensive for someone unrelated to Dany. It makes a lot more sense if he is thinking about Jon and what Robert would do to Jon (and ned) if he knew that Jon was a targaryen. Also, Ned, having actually held a targaryen baby in his arms, has had to face this exact decision before. All very circumstantial evidence to be sure, but still seems to support the likelyhood of R+L. It's going to be fascinating when the truth is revealed to see how it affects GoT. Most of Ned's story arc has not yet been revealed and he's already dead!

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Nah, I'm sure that either R+L=J or that the misdirection is deliberate: I picked up on the clues with no help, just by reading the books. It seems REALLY unlikely that so many people spontaneously picked up on clues that weren't there. It might be that GRRM is messing with us though.

I don't think he's messing with us. I think Jon's parentage is a planned mystery, and at some point we'll find out who his parents are/were. Given Eddard's words, thoughts, and actions about it Lyanna seems to me the most likely mother, and if she's the mother Rhaegar looks the more likely father.

I don't think it's proven by any stretch of the imagination, however.

While I also lean to there having been a bigamous marriage between R and L, I'm not convinced that was necessary or that Martin will have somehow mangled things if there wasn't.

You made some really good points in your post, and all I can really say is "I agree."

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The fact that the orders came from someone now dead strengthens them, not weakens. Cf. Brienne.

That is the case with Brienne (although for Brienne, it seems to be about more than just Lady Stark ordered her to do this), and loyal and true men would look upon vows to a dead man as sacrosanct, but they took a vow to defend the King, and if there is a King in the realm, that's where they should be, and possibly are.

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I just read something on TVTropes that blew my mind - Ashara Dayne could have been in on the R+L=J, she was set up as a possible mother for Jon in case as he grew older, he ended up looking like a Targ. whoa.

I really hope there's something more to Ashara's story than what we already know. I'm sorry, but killing yourself just because the guy you love is married to someone else, or because your brother is dead doesn't really wash with me. I find it unlikely that she would react that strongly, and with such finality.

And if she did kill herself because of one of those things, surely Ned would feel massive guilt over the whole thing. He never seems to think of her at all in his povs.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want R+L=J to become some big conspiracy, where a whole bunch of people knew, but it still was somehow kept as a total secret.

And I do think it was GRRM's intention that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. The references to it are all relatively throwaway ones, in the midst of hazy memory or vision sequences. It's only the decade long speculation and analysis of the books that has made it seem so obvious, and thus something that Martin would be unlikely to write. I only hope that the massive amounts of speculation and theorising don't make Martin actually change his mind, and alter the story.

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I really hope there's something more to Ashara's story than what we already know. I'm sorry, but killing yourself just because the guy you love is married to someone else, or because your brother is dead doesn't really wash with me. I find it unlikely that she would react that strongly, and with such finality.

And if she did kill herself because of one of those things, surely Ned would feel massive guilt over the whole thing. He never seems to think of her at all in his povs.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want R+L=J to become some big conspiracy, where a whole bunch of people knew, but it still was somehow kept as a total secret.

And I do think it was GRRM's intention that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. The references to it are all relatively throwaway ones, in the midst of hazy memory or vision sequences. It's only the decade long speculation and analysis of the books that has made it seem so obvious, and thus something that Martin would be unlikely to write. I only hope that the massive amounts of speculation and theorising don't make Martin actually change his mind, and alter the story.

Well Ned, Ashara and Howland Reed isn't a vast conspiracy.

And GRRM wouldn't change the story just because of fans -

Ten years from now, no one is going to care how quickly the books came out. The only thing that will matter, the only thing anyone will remember, is how good they were. That's my main concern, and always will be.

For us, having read the books and then analyzed them, we see R + J = L, but when the books are all out, some dude will sit down and read all the way through, and never have time to speculate for years in between.

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For us, having read the books and then analyzed them, we see R + J = L, but when the books are all out, some dude will sit down and read all the way through, and never have time to speculate for years in between.

You don't really need to sit around speculating for years to come to that conclusion. The R+L=J theory suddenly sprang up in my mind while I was in the middle of a Jon chapter in The Clash of Kings. And I was flying through that book as fast as I can (I really wanted to know what happens next).

Though what sealed the deal for me was the fact that so many people on this forum came to the same conclusion. A person who has all the books in front of them won't go around reading forums (or at least I wouldn't waste time on that).

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