The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Clemar the Sober]

I’m following this debate from the time I first found this forum some 7 years ago, but this is actually the first time I'm going to post some of my thoughts on this topic.

I think that regardless if you support the R+L = J theory or not the mystery surrounding Jon’s origin is one the things that make aSoIaF what it is and in end I do believe that what happened between Liana and Rheagar is crucial to the story GRRM is telling.

To be completely honest with you I support the R+L = J theory and I also believed for a long time that I figured it out myself – I noticed that the wording “bed of blood†was also used when Danny was giving birth – but in the end after a heated debate with one of my friends, he convinced me that it was also possible that I first saw it on this forum.

I’m just trying to say that the hints given in the books are not easy to spot and can be also interpreted differently. I just hope that in the end we will be given an answer and that Martin doesn’t leave this open for interpretation.

In addition I think that Ashara really is mentioned as one of the choices for Jon's mother just for the case if he would have taken after Rheagar (violet eyes, etc.).

[cravenravenkeeper]

Hey all first post! It seems only logical-I found this forum by searching around to see if anyone else had thought of it. Lo and behold ! It came to me while working as I was about 2/3rds threw AFFC. I can't remember what my logic was, but after realizing it, my first thought was "Doh! thats obvious". The timings were close enough to match, Rhaeger didn't seem like the kidnapping type, and Lynna doesn't strike me as a damsel in distress. If anything I have the feeling Lynna didn't really want to be with Robert (and, as Cersi's memory proves, for good reason. Infidelity, marital rape, and almost constant drunkeness are not good attribute ).

Also-and beyond the "Eddard wouldn't do that!" argument-it doesn't make sense that he'd keep the mothers identity a secret. First and foremost how could he? It's not like she spent 9 months in seclusion (well maybe with some kingsguard...), and people would have noticed him visiting her (whoever she is).

And if he is he better the frick get off the wall before Mellisendre realizes she has a half taryangen in her midsts. He can come back with Daney's dragons :) or something else (who knows..)

[3idcrow]

And if he is he better the frick get off the wall before Mellisendre realizes she has a half taryangen in her midsts. He can come back with Daney's dragons :) or something else (who knows..)

Hey, welcome to the board, you have a pretty cool name btw!

It was my thought on the subject too: Mel can see shit in her flames if she doesn't see a Targ right in front of her!

(provided that R+L=J is true which imo is very probable)

[Clemar the Sober]

It was my thought on the subject too: Mel can see shit in her flames if she doesn't see a Targ right in front of her!

(provided that R+L=J is true which imo is very probable)

I think that Mel is actually seeing glimpses of future or past events in the flames, but is interpreting them according to her believes. So she sees what she wants to see and currently this means that Stanis is the promised hero.

It may even be that as events progress on the wall she might come to believe that there is more to Jon than the fact that he is just a Stark’s bastard.

She may even be the trigger which will start unraveling the mysteries around Jon, because if he is part of a prophecy she will certainly see it in the flames one day.

[Shewoman]

cravenravenkeeper, it makes sense to me that Ned would keep Jon's mother a secret if his mother was Lyanna. Pretty much the whole realm has the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, so to make it public that Lyanna is Jon's mother is also to out Jon as Rhaegar's son (maybe legitimate or not, but still with Targ blood at a time when there doesn't seem to be a lot of it left in Westeros). To the best of my knowledge, none of Lyanna's family saw her after she disappeared from the North shortly before her brother Brandon was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully until Ned found her after the war ended. If Rhaegar did take her someplace out of the way to hide with the KG guarding her, it's no wonder that people don't know what became of her.

[3idcrow]

cravenravenkeeper, it makes sense to me that Ned would keep Jon's mother a secret if his mother was Lyanna. Pretty much the whole realm has the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, so to make it public that Lyanna is Jon's mother is also to out Jon as Rhaegar's son (maybe legitimate or not, but still with Targ blood at a time when there doesn't seem to be a lot of it left in Westeros). To the best of my knowledge, none of Lyanna's family saw her after she disappeared from the North shortly before her brother Brandon was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully. If Rhaegar did take her someplace out of the way to hide with the KG guarding her, it's no wonder that people don't know what became of her.

I think what cravenravenkeeper meant is that it doesn't make any sense to keep Jon's mother's identity a secret UNLESS it's Lyanna. Of course one can argue that if the mother is Ashara Ned would try to keep it a secret to spare her memory from an apparent disgrace...

[cravenravenkeeper]

cravenravenkeeper, it makes sense to me that Ned would keep Jon's mother a secret if his mother was Lyanna. Pretty much the whole realm has the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, so to make it public that Lyanna is Jon's mother is also to out Jon as Rhaegar's son (maybe legitimate or not, but still with Targ blood at a time when there doesn't seem to be a lot of it left in Westeros). To the best of my knowledge, none of Lyanna's family saw her after she disappeared from the North shortly before her brother Brandon was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully. If Rhaegar did take her someplace out of the way to hide with the KG guarding her, it's no wonder that people don't know what became of her.

Exactly.

Now we come to another problem in predicting these things: Namely-we don't know all the players. Nor all the facts. Jons mother could be someone we've never met. Maybe she's still around? Based on what we know, and based on the fact that the secret of Jons parentage is so tightly held we can assume that 1) it is about more then the honor of a women Ned loved (Though still plausible, it would be a let down) 2) the only known alternative is Rhaegar and Lyanna. He so clearly has the stark look about him that he must in some way have stark blood. Brandon and Benjen are both unlikely to have fathered children during this time period, so it's ned or Lyanna.

Honestly the only thing that counts againist Jon in my book is the lack of the seemingly constant Tarangyn eyes (the crazy coloring of which is noted repeatedly). It could simply be that he so strongly favored his mother. Also that could be reflected in his dire wolf (who has red eyes).

[Clemar the Sober]

Honestly the only thing that counts againist Jon in my book is the lack of the seemingly constant Tarangyn eyes (the crazy coloring of which is noted repeatedly). It could simply be that he so strongly favored his mother. Also that could be reflected in his dire wolf (who has red eyes).

Cravenravenkeeper, I agree with you that the most plausible solution to Ned’s behavior seems to be that Lyanna is Jon’s mother (“Promise me Ned …â€, “bed of bloodâ€, …).

As to Jon's looks, I always believed that Martin already provided us with the answer to why Jon looks like a Stark and not like a Targ: 1) by pointing out the difference to Robb, who looks more like Catelyn and Jon looks more like Ned (I think this is in one of the Catelyn chapters aGoT), 2) when saying that Arya resembles Jon (I believe that Jon is thinking it in one of his chapters) and 3) Arya also looks like Lyanna (someone I don’t know who is telling Arya).

Sorry that I can not be more specific on which page, chapter or book it is written, it’s been I few years I last read the books and to be honest I’m to lazy to look it up. :)

There was also a post regarding Ashara some time ago by which I came to believe that Ashara was put forward by Ned just for the case if Jon would have taken after Rheagar and he had to explain why he looks like a Targ. The coloring of her eyes and also some other features match that of the Targaryen.

[cravenravenkeeper]

There was also a post regarding Ashara some time ago by which I came to believe that Ashara was put forward by Ned just for the case if Jon would have taken after Rheagar and he had to explain why he looks like a Targ. The coloring of her eyes and also some other features match that of the Targaryen.

Ah your a fast one! I didn't even think of that. But it makes sense. Man if only he had been so clever on KL.

Or at leaset I wish Robb had gotten to lop off Jofferys head. Man would that have been sweet.

[bacchys]

Not all the Targs have the purple/violet eyes, as I recall. GRRM also made a point of noting that some bloodlines always dominate, though the actual families mentioned are the Baratheons and Lannisters (the gold always yields to the coal). The Stark features may dominate Targaryen, though they obviously don't Tully blood.

[Errant Bard]

Not all the Targs have the purple/violet eyes, as I recall.

Most have. Rhaegar, for example.

The Stark features may dominate Targaryen, though they obviously don't Tully blood.

Hmmm... what about Arya? And how is he supposed to know in advance on which side the coin will land?

[Guest Other-in-law]

While some Targaryens didn't have the silvery gold hair, I'm not sure if I recall any that didn't have purplish eyes (though they may have been dark enough to be mistaken for something else by the unobservant. Does anyone have a quote with an explicit example of a Targaryen with non-purplish eyes?

[Errant Bard]

Didn't Baelor Breakspear have brown eyes? Shiera Seastar had one green eye, iirc, and Bloodraven had red eyes.

[Ser Howsmelly]

Pretty much the whole realm has the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together

I was of the opinion that the whole realm was under the impression that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, unwillingly, as this was one of the primary reasons for the Usurper's War coming about.

ETA: I think individuals (such as Jojen and Meera for example) who are privy to more aspects of the backstory may have an inkling of the true nature of what occured between R+L, but i'm pretty sure the common perception is that Rhaegar abducted Lya.

And @ EB, as I understand it, Bloodraven was an albino - and red eyes are characteristic of individuals of this ilk.

[Errant Bard]

I was of the opinion that the whole realm was under the impression that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, unwillingly, as this was one of the primary reasons for the Usurper's War coming about.

Either way, this has been heavily romanticized, if I remember correctly, Brienne talks about how Rhaegar died saying the name of the woman he loved. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't a Romeo and Juliet type of thing, where it's both romantic elopement and kidnapping, since family lines and oaths of marriage (see Robb and the freys) are so important.

As an aside, isn't it funny how Freys crushing Robb mirror Ned and Robert crushing the targaryens, only the "good guys" switch places along with the PoV?

[Shewoman]

Wasn't it Dany who said Rhaegar died saying the name of the woman he loved?

[Clemar the Sober]

Ah your a fast one! I didn't even think of that. But it makes sense. Man if only he had been so clever on KL.

Or at leaset I wish Robb had gotten to lop off Jofferys head. Man would that have been sweet.

You are right it was maybe obvious, but I have never put it together. So cravenravenkeeper you are saying that Ned would be so clever?

I honestly believe that Ned wasn't naïve, regardless how things went for him in KL. To keep a secret like these demands more then just honor and the ability to keep promises or secrets. Do you think it is enough just to say this is my son and no one will ask a question afterwards? He is a bastard after all . Eventually someone will start digging and then you need a good story, like with all the lies we tell ;)

[Errant Bard]

I think Brienne and Dick Crabb (or was it Meribald?) mention it too, but I don't have my books with me.

[thotk]

QUESTION: If John is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna then isn't he the heir to the 7-Kingdoms, even above Dany?

I know he would technically be a bastard anyway, but doesn't the 1st Son's Son take precedence over the later Daughter?

[Clemar the Sober]

I think Brienne and Dick Crabb (or was it Meribald?) mention it too, but I don't have my books with me.

Just question, was it confirmed that Reaghar said Lynnas name?

When I first read the books I also got the impresion that Danny at least is talking about Lynna, but what about the rest of the realm, they think she was abducted? He could also have said Elia, who was I think already dead at this point.