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The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII


Werthead

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QUESTION: If John is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna then isn't he the heir to the 7-Kingdoms, even above Dany?

I know he would technically be a bastard anyway, but doesn't the 1st Son's Son take precedence over the later Daughter?

Yea that is the significance for this discussion.

You are right it was maybe obvious, but I have never put it together. So cravenravenkeeper you are saying that Ned would be so clever?

I never put it together either. I don't think its obvious, but it makes sense. Ned would be trying to figure out how he can pass off Jon Snow as his own. So he puts it on a women whos features are odd along the lines of the targs-so that if Jons eyes or hair turn to their color well you have the reason.

Luckily for him Jon seems to take after the stark side almost to the exclusion of all else.

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I was of the opinion that the whole realm was under the impression that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, unwillingly, as this was one of the primary reasons for the Usurper's War coming about.

We have very little textual evidence as to what anyone thought about Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. All we know is that Robert believed that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Robert also seems to believe that Ned believes that as well. However, Ned’s internal monologues is, interestingly enough, silent on the matter.

We also know that Brandon stormed into KL demanding that Rhaegar “come out and die.†Interestingly, he does NOT demand that Lyanna be “released†or “freed.†Again, the Stark is silent on the matter, but it COULD be inferred that Brandon also did not believe that Lyanna had been kidnapped.

We know that Dany believes that Rhaegar died whispering the name of the woman he loved; but she assuredly gained this knowledge from Viserys, as poor a source as Robert.

We also know that Cersei still pined for Rhaegar even after Robert’s death, and as such, it would seem very strange (even for Cersei) to desire a rapist; IIRC Cersei never even hints that Rhaegar was a kidnapping rapist.

In effect, the reasons given for the War has been that Aerys was crazy and demanded the head’s of Ned and Robert for treason to the crown (because he was a lunatic), Robert Aryn refused, and that started the War. Nobody really talks about Lyanna.

If John is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna then isn't he the heir to the 7-Kingdoms, even above Dany?

Ah… to quote Reverend Lovejoy, “Short answer: ‘Yes’, with an ‘if’; Long Answer ‘No’ with a ‘but’.â€

Yes, Rhaegar’s child would be King ahead of Dany, because Rhaegar’s child was in existence before Dany could take (and by extension, before Viserys could take). That means that Rhaegar, even though he was never “Kingâ€, keeps his childrens’ place in the line of succession, unless they are killed. In order for “Jon†to be king, Aerys, Rhaegar, and all of Rhaegar’s other children must die. Once that contingency is met, Jon is King even if he is in eutero. Apparently there was an Eastern European precedent for this.

But, Jon has a major strike against him: he is a bastard. Rhaegar’s wife is still very much alive, and there has been no legit polygamy in the Targs for 200+ years. Even if somebody could unearth something from Aerys or Elia of Dorne that said that Rhaegar and Lyanna were considered married, it seems preposterous that that could ensure the line of succession through to Jon (and past Dany and her dragons).

However, if Wesetroes has shown anything since Aegon landed in the Reach its that they can work around those rules.

was it confirmed that Reaghar said Lynnas name?

No. All we know is that Dany claims that she was told that he died whispering the name of the woman he loved. Brienne repeats something similar.

And more broadly there is very little evidence that can be “confirmed†about Rhaegar and Lyanna. All we know- for certain –is that at the Battle of the Red Fork, Robert Baratheon slew Rhaegar Targaryen with a shot to the chest with his Warhammer. Rhaegar was wearing black armor. Prior to the War in question, Rhaegar Targaryen won the tourney at Harrenhal where he named Lyanna Stark the Princess of Love and Beauty, and it was kind of a “faux pas.†We know Lyanna, at one point, said that true love cannot change a man’s nature. We know that Brandon went to KL and demanded that Rhaegar “come out and die.†We know that those events triggered the war. We know Lyanna died in the Mountains of Dorne and that Ned found her before she died. We know that he found her with other people.

We know that Robert believes that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, and was angry about it until the day he died.

He could also have said Elia, who was I think already dead at this point.

Elia was alive and held as virtual hostage at King’s Landing. She remained there when Tywin’s forces arrived and she was raped and murdered by Gregor Clegane. However, that does NOT mean he could not have whispered her name. He could have.

What I am trying to convey is that most of what we THINK we know about Rhaegar and Lyanna is 1) conjecture (which is not necessarily a bad thing), 2) circumstantial (again, that's not a bad thing), or 3) from the lips of people who's credibility is suspect or the information itself could be suspect.

In other words, in terms of 100% conformed facts that are not subject to misinterpretation, I think we do not know as much as we think we know.

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I never put it together either. I don't think its obvious, but it makes sense. Ned would be trying to figure out how he can pass off Jon Snow as his own. So he puts it on a women whos features are odd along the lines of the targs-so that if Jons eyes or hair turn to their color well you have the reason.

Luckily for him Jon seems to take after the stark side almost to the exclusion of all else.

I don’t know, if you think about it the story of Ashara is very conveniently placed in the books, like Martin wants us to remember. It may also be that I’m reading too much into it.

But I agree with you that it would make sense for Ned to put Ashara into the picture.

And Rockroi thanks for the short summary and answers.

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tossing this out there, Jon is the Prince that was Promised, he is already on the "front" and if he is the Prince of Dragonstone might make a bit of sense, of course Storms End is defended by Spells, so perhaps there is that to consider that Stannis would be the Lord of Storms End...

hmmm I may need to think further but I could

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tossing this out there, Jon is the Prince that was Promised, he is already on the "front" and if he is the Prince of Dragonstone might make a bit of sense, of course Storms End is defended by Spells, so perhaps there is that to consider that Stannis would be the Lord of Storms End...

hmmm I may need to think further but I could

Uh... what? Im pretty sure Daenerys is the princess that was promised. Remember what the maester said about noun gender in valyrian.

About thee R+L=J... I've been wondering... What was the cause of Robert's hate for the targs? I mean, if it started when Lyanna got abducted, then she probably didnt know, hence the promise woudnt neccesarily have to be about hiding jons identity...

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Uh... what? Im pretty sure Daenerys is the princess that was promised. Remember what the maester said about noun gender in valyrian.

About thee R+L=J... I've been wondering... What was the cause of Robert's hate for the targs? I mean, if it started when Lyanna got abducted, then she probably didnt know, hence the promise woudnt neccesarily have to be about hiding jons identity...

Well of course they would have had to hide him if he was Targaryen, by that time every person in the land has decided they want a Targaryen head on a pike but Dorne. He hated Aerys and assumed the evil had passed down. Everyone was done with Aerys by that time, even Tywin Lannister.

As to the prince that was promised nothing is adamant but here is the vision Dany had in the House of the Undying;

(Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brothers hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to the her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over the strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way)

--ACoK pg 701

Nowhere does it say ANYTHING about Valerian. They were also in Westeros so why wouldn't they speak Common?

He was TELLING her that THERE MUST BE ONE MORE, THE DRAGON HAS THREE HEADS. Rhaegar had only two children by Elia of Dorne. He is described as an honorable, dutiful and a great warrior. Why would he kidnap Lyanna when she had accepted the crown of roses from Rhaegar at the Harrenhal Tourney? Even if none of you believe Lyanna+Rhaegar=Jon you have to admit that the only person that seems adamant on the fact that she was kidnapped was Robert Baratheon. Which any man would rather believe that she was STOLEN from him rather than RAN OFF on him. The tower Ned goes to was named by Rhaegar the Tower of Joy. I know that the obvious answer is that Wylla or Ashara Dane, but let us look at this. Wylla is a servant and Ned was not likely to have had much interaction with her. Ashara does not fit because of the time frame. Ned was at war for one year and came home to a baby Robb. To travel from the North to Dorne, which is where Lyanna was, would take many months.

It is also known that Ned was at the Trident and Storms End. So he at least was involved in two major battles in that time. He would have had to have impregnated a woman and kept her with him through those battles to bring home an infant. Ned also is the ONLY person throughout the books that has holds honor as the utmost ideal. The only thing that stopped him dying in silence was the fact that Sansa was in danger. Otherwise he never gave up his honor, except if he cheated on Catelyn. The tie between the two was that he was willing to lie for the sake of a child of his blood. One of the last private thoughts you get from Eddard is how he wishes he could see the boy again and talk to him. The hints are there, GRRM might have put them there to confuse but there are so many and you will only catch them after reading it several times. Follow the Blue Roses and the visions Dany saw in The House of the Undying.

Rhaegar gives the wreath of Blue Roses to Lyanna making her the Queen of Beauty.

Every vision Eddard has of Lyanna and the Tower of Joy there are Blue Roses.

(A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with its sweetness.)

--ACoK pg 706

This is in The House of the Undying in Quarth when Dany is with the Undying Ones.

It can easily be said that the seed of Lyanna grew into a man at The Wall and is now The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch which fits this vision. I could go on quoting many times and I am sure that it would not finish the argument. We will know in a Dance with Dragons absolutely i am sure. Theres my part..

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We know that Robert believes that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, and was angry about it until the day he died.

Just to quibble over this fact a little.

We know that Robert says loudly and repeatedly that it was abduction and rape. But there is the odd hint that he does not entirely believe it himself. For example at one point he muses to Ned something like: "Rhaegar won, damn him. He has Lyanna now, and I have Cersei." Would he really think Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in death if there hadn't been a consensual relationship between them? Though possibly it merely shows that he thinks of women mostly as possessions.

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Just to quibble over this fact a little.

We know that Robert says loudly and repeatedly that it was abduction and rape. But there is the odd hint that he does not entirely believe it himself. For example at one point he muses to Ned something like: "Rhaegar won, damn him. He has Lyanna now, and I have Cersei." Would he really think Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in death if there hadn't been a consensual relationship between them? Though possibly it merely shows that he thinks of women mostly as possessions.

I personally think he was just in a state of denial. She probably even told him "Bobby, its over baby." but would Bob "The Knob" Baratheon take no for an answer?

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I'm not sure if this was caught, but Rheagar crowns Lyanna(Tourny o the false spring) with Blue Roses. When lyanna dies she drops Blue Roses. When dany sees her visions in the house of the undying she sees a BLUE ROSE climbing up out of a crack in the Wall. Blue Rose=John, the crack= the pact with the wildlings. Cracked does not mean broken, however the walls primary function the last few hundred years has been to keep the Wildlings out of Westeros, which of course was not the original purpose. Broken wall means the others made it through. the crack just means that a secondary force has breached the Wall, imho.

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Guest Other-in-law
Would he really think Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in death if there hadn't been a consensual relationship between them? Though possibly it merely shows that he thinks of women mostly as possessions.

Especially since there are seven completely different hells that the dead could go to. While Sevenish eschatology isn't thoroughly explained, it seems likely that there are some sorts of distinctions between these hells, and who gets to go to which ones. Evil rapist Rhaegar and sweet innocent Lyanna ending up in the same one sounds a bit odd.

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There isn't really any description of hell in the books, or heaven. Just that they go to there gods. If I am mistaken please quote me what I missed. Oh and I forgot to throw in my previous post that even if Jon was the next in line for the throne he took solemn vows that he held above even love,(Yggrite), so why would he break them for a kingdom he is suppossed to protect when he is already the leader of the Nights Watch. He also discussed with Aemon Targaryen this very subject when Robb strikes south to go to war.

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I didn't say there was any description of them, merely that there are believed to be seven different ones.

"If it is Sandor Clegane that we encounter, what would you have me do?"

Pray hard, Jaime thought, and run. "Send him to join his beloved brother and be glad the gods made seven hells. One would never be enough to hold both of the Cleganes."

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Yes, Rhaegar’s child would be King ahead of Dany, because Rhaegar’s child was in existence before Dany could take (and by extension, before Viserys could take). That means that Rhaegar, even though he was never “Kingâ€, keeps his childrens’ place in the line of succession, unless they are killed. In order for “Jon†to be king, Aerys, Rhaegar, and all of Rhaegar’s other children must die. Once that contingency is met, Jon is King even if he is in eutero. Apparently there was an Eastern European precedent for this.

But, Jon has a major strike against him: he is a bastard. Rhaegar’s wife is still very much alive, and there has been no legit polygamy in the Targs for 200+ years. Even if somebody could unearth something from Aerys or Elia of Dorne that said that Rhaegar and Lyanna were considered married, it seems preposterous that that could ensure the line of succession through to Jon (and past Dany and her dragons).

However, if Wesetroes has shown anything since Aegon landed in the Reach its that they can work around those rules.

Even if he was born a bastard, its also interesting to consider the possibility of legitimization by a king (or queen). This has me wondering over a possible Catch-22 situation:

Lets say, hypothetically, Dany becomes undisputed queen of all of Westeros and wants, for whatever reason, to legitimize Jon, who she acknowledges as the bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Now, does the legitimization process insert him in the line of succession based on when he was born (that is, is it completely retroactive), or based on when he was legitimized? If the former, wouldn't that place him earlier in line than the monarch that legitimized him? Then shouldn't he be King rather than Dany be Queen, and thus shouldn't she not have the power to legitimize him? (Night's Watch vows aside).

A lot of "if"s and hypotheticals, and not a situation I see happening in the books, but I thought it was interesting.

Nowhere does it say ANYTHING about Valerian. They were also in Westeros so why wouldn't they speak Common?

But where would Rhaegar have his information from? Quite possibly a text written in Valerian that he relates to Elia in Common in such a way that it oversteps the translation error Aemon points out.

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I must have been blind to that one. What book do they mention 7 hells in? Was it someone of the Westeros the seven who are one faith? I really would like to reread the part they mention it in if its there.

It was Jaime who mentioned the seven hells. (See Other-In-Law's post above)

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Ok thanks, I saw the quote as it was Other In Law I first posted in response to about the Seven Hells I just was wondering if anyone knew what page and book it was in so I can reread the chapter to get an idea of the context it was in.

AFfC, the Harrenhal chapter where Jaime is dining with Ser Bonifer Hasty. And that's hardly the only occurrence of "Seven Hells", it's a very commonplace curse, along with "Others take (fill in name of curse-ee).

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