The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Edward the Great]

It is Rhaegar who gives the order for the three men to stay at the Tower of Joy (Martin tells us this,)

And the reasoning Martin gives with his answer is fallacious, which makes me doubt Martin's answer. I am speculating that Martin lied through his teeth to hide the most dramatic secret in the story. I would.

and it is he who tells Jaime he has to stay in King's Landing (Jaime tells us so,)

I remember Rhaegar telling Jaime that he couldn't bring him to the Trident because his father wished for him to remain in King's Landing.

To assume some drastic change in the character of these men makes little or no sense

I think my theory takes very little change. I think Hightower was at the Tower precisely because Aerys ordered him to be there and in the end just couldn't bring himself to carry out his final orders. Everyone has a breaking point. Martin takes great pleasure in writing stories that push people to them.

- particularly since at this point both King and Crown Prince are working for the same immediate goal, the defeat of the rebellion.

This is not certain, it's quite possible Rhaegar intended for his army to lose. Someone recently pointed out that Rhaegar attacking across a ford was really stupid.

With Hightower, OIL, may well be right that Rhaegar has other plans regarding setting his father aside .

And everything you two say depends on Aerys not seeing this. This is not believable to me. Aerys is capable of grotesque miscalculation in addition to wicked cunning. But he is always paranoid. I cannot believe that he had not begun to question Rhaegar's loyalty. It would be just plain bad, inconsistent writing.

He needs no other reason to be at the Tower of Joy - at this point - than that Rhaegar ordered him to be there.

A sufficient explanation, but not a necessary one. This statement does nothing for your argument.

[Rockroi]

I want the record to reflect that I TRIED not to derail the thread.

It's clear from Jaime's description of events that Rhaegar is sent for to command the loyalist response to the rebellion after the Battle of the Bells.

Yes. However, this actually raises more questions.

Lets get this out of the way: there is, actually, no evidence that Hightower sent and retrieved Rhaegar (I was only postulating when I said it the first time). Darry and Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to gather up Connington’s army and Rhaegar merely “returned” from the South. That was it. Thus, ANY discussion on what Aerys did and did not order Hightower to do is remarkably speculative, even for these boards.

I ONLY brought up the point to show that at some time AFTER the Stark deaths and BEFORE the Trident, Hightower goes from guarding the King … to Dorne? Not to battle, not to fight the enemy or guard anyone. No. He goes... to the middle of nowhere. Who would EVER order Hightower to do this? Aerys? Hardly. Unless Aerys knows what is in Dorne (highly unlikely) and agrees with it, he would want Hightower either a) by his side or b ) on the field of battle. Neither is the case here. Did Rhaegar order Hightower to Dorne? When would he have had the opportunity?

That includes the disposition of the Kingsguard. It is Rhaegar who gives the order for the three men to stay at the Tower of Joy (Martin tells us this,)

When? There is no statement that Rhaegar ordered them to stay there. In fact, IIRC, Martin has made the statement that they were not “nailed down” and could travel around. But even if Rhaegar DID order them to guard the ToJ, this actually avails you little (See below).

…and it is he who tells Jaime he has to stay in King's Landing (Jaime tells us so,) and he who commands the rest of the Kingsguard as they go to the Trident.

You are conflating some of this; misremembering the rest. Jaime was NEVER ordered by Rhaegar to stay in KL; Rhaegar merely repeats the order Aerys had given to Jaime. As everyone stated (Jaime, Tywin, etc) Aerys wanted Jaime close to him so as to keep Tywin neutral and potentially get Tywin to come back to his side. Everyone agrees with this.

So it isn't a question of Hightower or any of the others being disobedient to Aerys.

This question is very much in play.

Aerys has delegated these decisions to his son as he descends further into his madness.

If you take nothing else from this post, please heed this: there is not one shred of evidence in the books that Aerys delegated anything. He is the one who commands Rhaegar to return; he is the one who commands that wildfire be propped throughout his city; he is the one who refuses to listen to Connington; who goes through Hands like tissue-paper; etc etc etc. We have very, very few quotes from Aerys, but none show a King delegating his authority. In fact, they show a despot, paranoid and constantly wrapping himself in his own authority with maddening schemes and chances.

It would take explicit commands by Aerys to countermand Rhaegar's orders,

If there were any orders from Rhaegar for Hightower to hear. We know of none. The fact that Hightower is at the ToJ does not actually help you because while it could be proof of orders, it does NOT in any way explain what Aerys may have ordered AND could actually be used to support my theory: that Hightower WANTED to guard a tower in the middle of nowhere.

and given the actions of the members of the Kingsguard who have proven their loyalty to Aerys over many years the logical conclusion is that those countermanding orders never came.

Blah. The fact that the KG has “proven their loyalty” to Aerys may actually be part of their problem: they are stained with supporting a Mad King. And not just some bumbling imbecile, but a dangerous maniac.

And your language here is utterly misused “Countermanding orders”? Nobody can countermand the King. And any order- implicit or explicit –given by Aerys is the law. Rhaegar is NOT equal to Aerys (stop treating him like he is). If Aerys sent Hightower to the ToJ to retrieve Rhaegar (and there is no evidence of this), than it stands to reason that he wanted Hightower to actually return (in the middle of a War that would seem reasonable). In fact, it seems FAR more reasonable that Aerys would EXPLICITLY say something like “Find Rahegar and bring him back here.” But we are now arguing about orders that may not even exist, let alone what they may say.

To assume some drastic change in the character of these men makes little or no sense - particularly since at this point both King and Crown Prince are working for the same immediate goal, the defeat of the rebellion.

What I am saying is that Aerys Targaryen was the kind of man who inspired- as you put it –drastic changes in character. And there is some evidence – scant as it may be –that this may have happened to these members of the KG. And not just Jaime Lannister.

With Hightower, OIL, may well be right that Rhaegar has other plans regarding setting his father aside (Jaime's account of Rhaegar's last words to him point to this) that would best be started with the Lord Commander away from Aerys's ability to easily reach him, but it is also true that Hightower has shown himself to be dedicated to his oath and part of that includes following the orders of his Crown Prince. He needs no other reason to be at the Tower of Joy - at this point - than that Rhaegar ordered him to be there.

Other than the war raging? I mean, you are starting to treat Hightower like a buffoon (which he may have been to some extent). Hightower knows his value- as a warrior, battle commander and Lord Commander of the KG. It would be completely obtuse for Hightower to just blindly follow Rhaegar’s orders when Aerys’ word is the only one that matters …

… unless, of course, Hightower WANTED to stay away. This is my point. If you are Gerold Hightower, in the middle of a war, do you sit at the ToJ, thinking, "Yes, I am fulfilling my oath! I am doing my part for the King... by standing here... in the middle of nowhere... doing nothing... gods... if only Aerys would order me to return! But, alas, I must remain here, with 3/7 of the KG, guarding... a tower... with nothing to do?" I forgot the part of the books that said Gerold Hightower was "Hightower 7500": a programmable robot that does not have any intuition. I mean, its only an atomaton that does not recognize what is going on outside the ToJ.

Dayne, Whent and Hightower were not that. I think this goes a great way in explaining what they were doing there; they were there because they WANTED to be there. And more improtantly, did NOT want to do anything to help Aerys.

As SFDanny has pointed out, GRRM has said those three remained at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders,

If this is true it leaves a great, wide chasm of translation: if Aerys said one thing and Rhaegar said another, Hightower MUST follow Aerys. Well, what is Hightower WANTED Rhaegar to order him to the ToJ, irrespective of what Aerys stated? Hightower HAS TO know that the war is where he is needed, not in some tower 1000 miles from the nearest battle. But he just looks up at Rhaegar and says “I will stay”?

This ONLY makes sense if Hightower informs Rhagear of how BADLY he wants to stay away from Aerys- implicitly or explicitly. The only other alternative is that Hightower is a robot without the sense to know that his place was either in the field or with the King. Rhaegar, I feel, played a part in their desire to stay away from Aerys- he gave them a completely meaningless assignment 100 miles away from ANY WAY these men could assist the Mad King.

I mean, its akin to “ordering” a child to eat all the ice-cream he wants; is it really an order if the person was going to do that anyway OR wanted to do that anyway?

[SFDanny]

Rockroi, JT gave the reference to this quote earlier in the thread. Here it is again.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

emphasis added

Notice Martin isn't asked about who gave the order which puts the Kingsguard trio at the Tower of Joy but he volunteers that it was Rhaegar who did so. I don't think there is any question about this anymore. Doesn't mean they didn't have other orders as well, and it doesn't mean they were nailed down at the Tower (they could have done other tasks during this period,) but it does mean that the order for them to be at the Tower comes from Rhaegar.

Also, I'm not conflating things around Jaime's orders. It is Jaime who goes to Rhaegar and asks him to allow him to go to the Trident with him. Rhaegar says no, and tells him why - the bit about his father's need to have him near because of his fear of Tywin. The point is that it shows who is ordering the Kingsguard into position at this point - it is Rhaegar.

That doesn't mean Rhaegar and Aerys are equal in their authority. It only means that Rhaegar has taken over command of the loyalist response to the rebellion, by his father's delegation of authority to him. This doesn't mean Aerys doesn't continue to issue commands, both coherent and paranoid, only that Rhaegar is effectively his minister of war or commander-in-chief. Read the part of Jaime remembering when Rhaegar comes north and takes up command and add the scenes of Rhaegar making decisions and Martin's quote above and you have much more than a "shred of evidence" to support this view.

btw, read my post again, I've never said anyone, Rhaegar included, "countermands" the orders of the king. Just the opposite. I said it would take a countermanding order by Aerys to overturn Rhaegar's orders. I don't see much of any room for dispute about this.

Next, reread Martin's quote above. He makes it very clear the Kingsguard doesn't make up their own orders. The Kingsguard trio are their because they were told to be there - by Rhaegar. Whatever Hightower or Dayne or Whent thought of Aerys's mental state doesn't enter into it. It may have entered into it if Rhaegar had ever made it to the point of calling his council, but up to this point it isn't in the cards.

Lastly, Edward the Great, Martin didn't lie. He just answered the poorly crafted question that was put to him. While it is easy to understand that the questioner wanted to get at the issue of conflicting oaths and responsibilities it is not what he or she asks. Martin answers the question by telling us what almost all of us assumed to be true. That the Kingsguard trio are there under Rhaegar's orders. He just leaves out answering anything about conflicting oaths. Why? I think it is because he could answer it truthfully without revealing that there is NO conflict between the oath and Rhaegar's orders. If the question had been more specific, I have little doubt that Martin would have availed himself of his standard answer when confronted with a question that would reveal too much of the story if answered - "Keep on reading."

P.S. - Rockroi, the record should reflect your valiant efforts at ending threadjacking, but this thread always goes into such side issues. Not much of a way to prevent it. ;)

[Rockroi]

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." (emphasis added)

That is quite possibly the most important "if" in this conversation. Martin never stated that Rhaegar ordered the KG to the ToJ. He only said "if." And that was in the context of other royals ordering around the KG, and NOT in direct explanation of the ToJ.

Its now really hard for you to say that Martin said that Rheagar ordered them to the ToJ.

But, again, even if we assume that Rhaegar "ordered" them to the TOJ, this avails you little as I stated before. Rhaegar could very well have "ordered" the KG to do something they were far more inclined to do: stay at the ToJ so they would SPECIFICALLY not have to actively fight for Aerys. That fulfills all the criteria for this line from Martin (which, I must reiterate, does NOT say that Rhaegar actually ordered them there). I really cannot think of anything Martin would say (in other words- that he would be WILLING to say) that will shed any more light on this until the books become published.

My take is really not very far fetched. A tired and angered Dayne talks to "his best friend" Rhaegar Targaryen and they have a heart-to-heart talk about Aerys. Dayne states that he cannot understand Aerys, why he slew Rickard and Brnadon that way. Lyanna, the unborn child, Rhaegar, Viserys, the Queen, and every person - lord or peasant -is in danger with Aerys the Mad. Dayne states that his sword is sworn to the King... but that is a problem; he finds Aerys loathsome. So does Rhaegar (why else would he want him removed). As long as Aerys was King, Dayne would be SWORN to defend the King- at the exclusion of all others, even others of Royal Blood.

Remember- Dayne is Rhaegar's BEST FRIEND! If Rhaegar tried to remove Aerys with Dayne was within earshot... Dayne would be honor-bound to defend Aerys FROM RHEAGAR! Christ! Rhaegar TOLD Jaime he wanted Aerys removed! Do you think he would not have told Dayne? Dayne wants this as well. But if Aerys asks Dayne to slay Rhaegar... HE MUST DO IT!

GODS.... if only there was some way to keep Dayne away from Aerys! Gods... if only Dayne could be given some menial, completely safe and completely useless task far, far far far away from Aerys... I cannot imagine one... maybe something will come to me.

And if you think someone as intelligent (Jaime's description of what Dayne did to retard the growth of the Kingswood brotherhood indicates an intelligent man), caring (Rhaegar seems attracted to people who are sincere), and respected as Dayne WOULD NOT SEE THIS AS WELL... I relaly have nothing to say to that. Whent probably was also in on all this.

And then you have Hightower. "You were sworn to protect the King, not Judge him." He is in KL at the start. And somehow makes it all the way to Dorne by the end. He swore an oath. Hightower and Rhagear meet up- most likely away from KL. Rheagar senses Hightower has similar problems with Aerys as the others. Hightower also swore an oath. "Get. Me. Out. Of. This." He says, not in so many words. "I am old. I am still powerful enough to save Aerys, but I do not want him saved. He is a terrible man; a worse King. Help me avoid helping him." Rhaegar obliges. "I have an important assignment for you ... in the mountains of Dorne where nobody is around and there are already TWO OTHER Kingsguard there; you have no important function, but to go there. And stay there. Away from Aerys. You can claim you fulfilled your honor, your oath, AND did nothing to aid the Mad King." EVERYONE is happy.

This makes sense.

I will say that if Martin never touches upon the topic again- one way or the other -I will admit defeat. I think we would need some direct, textual evidence of Dayne, Whent and Hightower staying in the South to avoid fighting for Aerys. Silence would indicate that the men were there merely because of orders.

P.S. - Rockroi, the record should reflect your valiant efforts at ending threadjacking, but this thread always goes into such side issues. Not much of a way to prevent it. ;)

I am such a Usurper of threads. :P

[SFDanny]

Usurpers of the world unite! We have nothing to loose but our ... threads?

To your points, I think you magnify the "if" in that sentence way out of proportion. Martin volunteers Rhaegar's name and specifically rules out the Kingsguard trio having made up their own orders. These men would follow Rhaegar's orders. OK, who else could have given them orders? Perhaps Rhaella? Or Viserys? Maybe little Rhaenys or baby Aegon? No, only Rhaegar and Aerys would have or could have ordered these men on this duty, and Martin's response points to Rhaegar because he is the only one that makes any sense. If Aerys had ordered the Kingsguard to hold onto Lyanna, why would he not do the exact thing he does with Elia and her children? He holds them as de facto hostages against Dorne's continued loyalty to the Iron Throne. Would he not do the same with Lyanna? Why then isn't she brought, at long last, to King's Landing where she can be held by Aerys against the rebels continued treasonous actions? Because even Aerys knows if he is to get his son to take up the fight he must do so without threatening Lyanna. Rhaegar has absented himself from the fight up to that point, why would he not continue to do so if Aerys tries to harm her? No, I think it is very clear where the orders come from that puts the trio at the Tower. The orders come from Rhaegar.

Not that that speaks to the mindset of the trio regarding Aerys. I don't have any problem with the idea that most if not all the Kingsguard have reached the conclusion that Aerys is fruit loops, gone round the bend, or just plain bat-shit crazy. However you want to put it. I do have a problem with coming to the conclusion, based on no evidence, that these three would decide to sit out the war, or they would ask their prince - whose future crown depends on winning the war - if they could sit out the war because of Aerys's mental state. This isn't a question of them looking for a way to just not serve Aerys in the war because it is Targaryen rule that is at stake, including as I said Rhaegar's future reign. What makes you think these three have reached the conclusion that they are willing for Robert to rule them? Nothing points to this. Far from it. Their remarks to Ned as recounted in his dream has them boast of their continued loyalty. Their actions at the Tower shows their willingness to die to fulfill their vow. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, supports the idea they wanted to sit out the war. In fact they don't. They die in the last hopeless battle of the war rather than peacefully give Lyanna over to her brother.

I'd also like to point out that guarding the one person who the rebels want to capture the most, and who some of the Targaryen forces would also like to lay their hands on, is not sitting out the war. They are carrying out a hazardous duty that calls for iron clad loyalty to Targaryen rule. Not running away from the conflict or from Aerys's madness.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

And everything you two say depends on Aerys not seeing this. This is not believable to me. Aerys is capable of grotesque miscalculation in addition to wicked cunning. But he is always paranoid. I cannot believe that he had not begun to question Rhaegar's loyalty. It would be just plain bad, inconsistent writing.

There is evidence that Aerys began to mistrust Rhaegar, but I can't say I see much cunning intelligence in him. Blundering straight into captivity at Duskendale, letting the enemy he feared most through the KL gates, sending Jaime loose unsupervised to do as he pleased after giving him a ludicrously problematic order (which would invoke a divine curse, by Westerosi mores), and above all not taking advantage of the secret escape tunnels of the Red Keep at the end. I see a lot more grotesque miscalculation than cunning.

That said, Aerys ordering Hightower to keep Lyanna from getting away seems like a reasonable possibility to me (though he would have been better served by keeping Jaime more tightly guarded as a hostage against Tywin, if he thought in those terms).

I find that much more plausible than Rockroi's idea of Hightower trying to weasel his way out of his vows.

For one thing, there was no disgrace in fighting and dying for Rhaegar on the Trident. That was as much a matter of fighting to protect the dynasty as the individual king. And we really don't have a scrap of evidence that Hightower had any lack of desire to do his duty. The contempt they discuss Jaime with shows the opposite. If the best one can come up with is imagining a different meaning conveyed by a tone of voice that isn't described...well, that's not much.

[Edward the Great]

He holds them as de facto hostages against Dorne's continued loyalty to the Iron Throne. Would he not do the same with Lyanna?

It would be hard for Aerys to say "bend the knee, or else!" when he's already tried to kill Robert and Ned before they called their banners against him, and Robert's line is that Lyanna is routinely being raped. Well past the point of no return there.

Why then isn't she brought, at long last, to King's Landing where she can be held by Aerys against the rebels continued treasonous actions?

This is a good question. The only adequate explanation is that Lyanna was not in sufficient physical condition to be moved.

Because even Aerys knows if he is to get his son to take up the fight he must do so without threatening Lyanna. Rhaegar has absented himself from the fight up to that point, why would he not continue to do so if Aerys tries to harm her?

You need to make a distinction between threatening harm and actually doing harm. Why not suppose Aery's mentality was that Rhaegar wouldn't support him unless he threatened Lyanna? The bit about not actually harming Lyanna is why I think Lyanna was not moved to King's Landing. He didn't think Rhaegar would have the balls to get himself killed despite the threat.

There is evidence that Aerys began to mistrust Rhaegar, but I can't say I see much cunning intelligence in him.

Keeping Elia and her children in King's Landing is what kept Viserys and Dany alive and Dorne loyal. It may even lead to the defeat of the Others and the summer without end.

[Lord Varys]

It is likely that Aerys sent out Hightower (and maybe Whent, too - Dayne likely always was with Rhaegar)) to apprehend Rhaegar during the war. We know he wanted Rhaegar to deal with Robert after he deposed Merryweather, and he only made Connington Hand because he could not find Rhaegar (which implies that he would have made Rhaegar his Hand, had he been around).

It is true, also, that Rhaegar doubted Rhaegar, as he did doubt Tywin and Rhaella (that's why he supposedly employed Varys), but obviously he no longer doubted him when the war started to go badly for House Targaryen (especially as he had to know that Robert had more issues with Rhaegar than with himself).

So if Rhaegar had Hightower and Whent convinced that he would return to KL, there was no reason why they should accompany him - if there was a more important duty to fulfill at the Tower of Joy. There is no reason why Rhaegar should part from Arthur Dayne at that point, even if there was a silent conspiracy between the Prince of Dragonstone and some members of the KG that Rhaegar intended to suffocate Aerys in his sleep or something like that (or turned against him in a less mortal way). That would have happened after the battle, and during the battle Rhaegar would be in need of his KG. Having the likes of the White Bull the Sword of the Morning with him would not just be a matter of his safety, but of prestige as well, as we learned from the Barristan Selmy situation in the series later.

It would have been easy for Rhaegar to send the KG elsewhere but KL after he had won at the Trident. And this whole thing about violence within the royal family is confusing and difficult even for the KG. Jaime is not allowed to defend Queen Rhaella from Aerys, and it might be that he would not be allowed to defend Rhaegar from Aerys, if he himself tried to kill him, but I'm not sure if they cared if such a situation would arise in their presence. Even the KG are still human, after all, and I can't see them letting Aerys the Mad kill Rhaegar the Most Beloved, nor can I see them enact the order to kill Rhaegar, even if they came from the King himself. At that point this would raise loyalty issues even in the old-fashioned KG members - especially Rhaegar had just personally led an army to win a war.

And in any case, any orders Rhaegar might have given to appease their cowardice of being put in 'difficult situations' would be irrelevant after both Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead, and Viserys III King on the Iron Throne. Had they remained faithful (which they claim they were in Ned's dreams) they would have had to go Dragonstone at once, or become traitors. In fact, if this were true, there was no reason why they should not join Robert I as Selmy did, nor is there any reason why they should have been unable to take Rhaegar's pet with them to Dragonstone. Her life would never be as important to them as the life of the young King, and his mother, the Queen - especially after Rhaegar was dead.

That the orders to guard Lyanna in the ToJ might have come from Aerys makes no sense at all. Aerys would have had them drag Rhaegar and his whore back to KL, not to guard the whore at a place where he could not access her any time he liked to threaten both Ned and Robert with her life. Lyanna would have been the best hostage he could wish for, actually, and I can see Rhaegar letting her stay at the ToJ to prevent exactly this from happening, not that this was something Aerys of all people designed. He likely would have ordered if he had a hand in this that the KG kill Lyanna as soon as they hear that both he and Rhaegar are dead, but apparently he did not do that.

[Edward the Great]

It is true, also, that Rhaegar doubted Rhaegar, as he did doubt Tywin and Rhaella (that's why he supposedly employed Varys), but obviously he no longer doubted him when the war started to go badly for House Targaryen

I think you mean "Aerys doubted Rhaegar"? Then he suddenly undoubted him? Sounds like the writing I would expect from Legend of the Seeker or Warrior Princess Xena.

So if Rhaegar had Hightower and Whent convinced that he would return to KL,

There is no convince. They either trust him or they don't. If they don't trust him, and they aren't accompanying him, then they must be doing something to ensure his loyalty. So, if the KG remained at the Tower because Rhaegar ordered them to stay there, then it must be that Aerys trusted Rhaegar. As I said already, I don't believe it. It would be terrible writing.

there was no reason why they should accompany him - if there was a more important duty to fulfill at the Tower of Joy.

I'll give you an important duty - preserving the reign of Aerys. Accepting Lyanna as a legitimate seconds wife would be important enough to leave only one KG at the Tower under the circumstances. The presence of all 3 of them at the Tower after Rheagar left needs an explanation.

That the orders to guard Lyanna in the ToJ might have come from Aerys makes no sense at all.

Not guard, hold her hostage. If you can't address the specifics of my argument, I win by default.

Aerys would have had them drag Rhaegar and his whore back to KL,

If Lyanna or Jon are harmed in any way then there is no hope of making Rhaegar loyal and thus no way for Aerys to preserve his reign, or save his ass.

[SFDanny]

It would be hard for Aerys to say "bend the knee, or else!" when he's already tried to kill Robert and Ned before they called their banners against him, and Robert's line is that Lyanna is routinely being raped. Well past the point of no return there.

Was Theon's use of Beth Cassel well past the point of no return? I think so, but that's the kind of use Aerys would make of Lyanna as a hostage. There is no kiss and make up involved. It's do this or I kill your sister and your betrothed.

This is a good question. The only adequate explanation is that Lyanna was not in sufficient physical condition to be moved.

We have timeline issues with this. The Battle of the Bells is likely many months (perhaps four or five months into the Rebellion) before Lyanna's death. It is highly unlikely Lyanna is in such a precarious health state that she can't be moved for that long. It raises questions about Rhaegar leaving her for so long in such a state and it raises a question about who took care of her for so long. It is much more likely that given the clues about a fever and a bloody bed that Lyanna dies of a short term illness associated with childbirth, such as puerperal fever.

You need to make a distinction between threatening harm and actually doing harm. Why not suppose Aery's mentality was that Rhaegar wouldn't support him unless he threatened Lyanna? The bit about not actually harming Lyanna is why I think Lyanna was not moved to King's Landing. He didn't think Rhaegar would have the balls to get himself killed despite the threat.

So, you are proposing that Rhaegar got himself killed on purpose? This is the same guy who believed he played a crucial role in the fulfillment of a prophecy to save humanity? He would risk his children and humanity's future to get back at his father by throwing the war? No, I think not.

Keeping Elia and her children in King's Landing is what kept Viserys and Dany alive and Dorne loyal. It may even lead to the defeat of the Others and the summer without end.

Just how did this do any of that? First, Dany wasn't even born or her mother's pregnancy known about when any of these decisions took place, and Viserys and Rhaella leaving had nothing to do with keeping Elia and her children in King's Landing. It is only Aerys's paranoia about Dorne that keeps Elia and her children in King's Landing - notice that when we are told this there is nothing about keeping Rhaegar loyal, though that would seem a rather important thing to leave out. How any of that has to do with the Others and "summer without end" is crackpottery of the most broken sort.

[Edward the Great]

Was Theon's use of Beth Cassel well past the point of no return? I think so, but that's the kind of use Aerys would make of Lyanna as a hostage. There is no kiss and make up involved. It's do this or I kill your sister and your betrothed.

In the minds of the rebels, Lyanna is already being harmed. Too late for love.

It is much more likely that given the clues about a fever and a bloody bed that Lyanna dies of a short term illness associated with childbirth, such as puerperal fever.

Well, you may have me here. How long can it take someone to expire from puerperal fever?

So, you are proposing that Rhaegar got himself killed on purpose? This is the same guy who believed he played a crucial role in the fulfillment of a prophecy to save humanity? He would risk his children and humanity's future to get back at his father by throwing the war? No, I think not.

You really didn't read the story the same way that I did. Rhaegar believed he was doomed to die. He thought this was a necessary part of the prophecy. This is why he played a depressing song on a harp and caused Lyanna to cry at the Tournament of Harrenhal. Did he really throw the battle? I don't know. But it is definitely worth serious suspicion.

Just how did this do any of that?

Because Dorne has been keeping Viserys and Dany alive and they wouldn't have done that if they weren't motivated by vengeance.

[SFDanny]

In the minds of the rebels, Lyanna is already being harmed. Too late for love.

The point being Lyanna may have had some value as Aerys's Beth Cassel type hostage if she is in King's Landing. The fact she is isolated in the Tower of Joy negates his use of her in this way. Aerys's would have told the Kingsguard to bring Lyanna back to King's Landing if it was he who gave the order to the trio to "hold" her. It makes no sense for him to give the order to hold her there. That's completely aside from Martin's remarks that point to Rhaegar having given the order.

Well, you may have me here. How long can it take someone to expire from puerperal fever?

It is something that develops within about ten days of childbirth and women die quickly from the infection. If your scenario is to be believed and Lyanna is too sick to be moved for many months then we have to rule out childbirth complications as the cause of her death. The timeline would also rule out Jon as her son. But we have nothing that would indicate she was sick for so long.

You really didn't read the story the same way that I did. Rhaegar believed he was doomed to die. He thought this was a necessary part of the prophecy. This is why he played a depressing song on a harp and caused Lyanna to cry at the Tournament of Harrenhal. Did he really throw the battle? I don't know. But it is definitely worth serious suspicion.

He may well have thought he was doomed to die, as part of an over all destiny to save the world. Taking Targaryen rule down, along with his father, his children, and his wife (or wives) in a battle with rebel lords trying to take back the "woman he loved" doesn't seem to be part of his mindset at all. Winning and preparing his children for the return of dragons and the fight with the "Great Other" would be.

Because Dorne has been keeping Viserys and Dany alive and they wouldn't have done that if they weren't motivated by vengeance.

And you know the first part of this how? Yes, Dorne is motivated by vengeance because of the actions of the Lannisters in the sack of King's Landing. That was certainly not part of Aerys's plan in keeping Elia and her children in the city. If you mean by accident he set up the scenario by which Tywin had the opportunity to kill Elia and her children, yes, he did that. None of which points to Dornish support for Viserys or Dany while they were in exile. That is only supposition on your part, with nothing I know of to back it up. If Doran's plan to marry Arianne to Viserys is what you allude to, it doesn't qualify as support for the Beggar King's existence while they live in the Free Cities. And if they did do so, they did a damn poor job of it.

[shinerfan]

So has anyone put forward an alternate explanation for Dany's vision of the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice? Obviously the Undying aren't especially trustworthy but how would they know anything about Jon Snow? For that matter it seems a long shot that it came from Dany's subconscience. I realize there are lots of people who doubt R+L=J and for the most part they put forward strong arguments but I haven't seen this addressed and to me its the strongest link in the chain. The dream of the ToJ and the bed of blood are open to different interpretations but I can only read the blue rose one way. R+L=J. My apologies if this has been discussed, I just haven't seen it.

(Actually, I suppose the blue rose really only indicates ?+L=J.)

[bacchys]

That is only supposition on your part, with nothing I know of to back it up. If Doran's plan to marry Arianne to Viserys is what you allude to, it doesn't qualify as support for the Beggar King's existence while they live in the Free Cities. And if they did do so, they did a damn poor job of it.

A poor job of it? Viserys and Danaerys are very much alive at the beginning of the tale, and they even have a rather wealthy benefactor.

For a man who risks the wrath of a King who likes nothing more than smashing his warhammer into rebellious vassals (according to Eddard Stark, anyway), that's anything but a "poor job" if it is Martell's doing.

[Edward the Great]

A poor job of it? Viserys and Danaerys are very much alive at the beginning of the tale, and they even have a rather wealthy benefactor.

However, the only solid link to the Martells is a priest who is present when Dany meets Drogo.

We simply don't know what Viserys's motives are. There's been a lot of time wasted talking about him, but it hasn't gone anywhere.

[bacchys]

However, the only solid link to the Martells is a priest who is present when Dany meets Drogo.

Hence the "if it is Martell's doing."

Among the many tales I'd like to see fleshed out by GRRM in future years is the life of Viserys.

That's when you know you've found a great writer: when even the irrelevant tidbits sound interesting!

[Liliedhe]

Hm... OK, I'm probably not qualified to post here - I did not read number one through seven of these threads, and I'm only a fan of these books since February. Also, I do not believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But, I do believe that we do not even begin to know what really happened between them. And it is one of my favourite ASoIaF-related pasttimes to invent crackpot theories about it.

And this one might actually have a bit of merit... Will you bear with me, please?

It's about the winterroses. We all know that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal. We also know she still had that crown when she died, it figures prominently in Lord Eddard's memories, she died in a "room that smelled of blood and roses." (AGoT p. 43 for many) And, when Theon dreams of the dead Starks, he sees "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore" (ACoK p. 809). I do not want to descend into speculation what she died of that is too complicated.

I just want to draw a comparison with another story that features a Stark girl and winter roses - that of Bael the Bard and the daughter of the King of Winter (ACoK p. 745-747). There, the King beyond the wall, disguised as a singer, leaves a blue rose "no flower is so rare or so precious" in place of the daughter of Lord Stark and returns her one year later with a bastard son at her breast. At first glance, the story is mostly significant because it has fugitives hiding in the crypt (like Bran and Rickon). But what if Rhaegar also knew that story, and if it maybe even was one of those he sang at Harrenhal? The songs that made Lyanna weep? In that case, the blue roses might have served as signal or even something of a contract for her: "I want to do as Bael did, and then I will give you back, send you home."

I do not want to presume if Lyanna went with him voluntarily or not (that is another can of worms), but she held onto that crown, even when it was dead and black, until she died. Maybe she saw it as a promise "I will send you home"? And it seems quite clear that whatever else she made Ned promise, she also wanted him to promise to take her home and bury her in the crypts - something of incredible importance to the Starks, as we can see from both Ned's and Bran's perspectives. She was weak, and wasted, and dying, but she made him promise. The crown is the start of the bloodshed (when Ned grabs it in a dream, the thorns sting him and make him bleed [AGoT p. 631]), and the price of a woman - not forever, but for a year. Rhaegar meant to eventually give her back (or at least had promised this) and the symbol for it is the crown, which is why Lyanna held onto it until she came home. As Theon sees in the dream.

So, now, I have nattered a lot and not really said anything to the topic of the thread, except that of course, Bael got a son from his Stark girl, and Rhaegar seems to have meant to have a child from Lyanna as well. I do not believe he got it (or that it is not Jon), but if one was so enclined to argue, it might be an argument in favour of this theory here.^^

If this is an old, old, old hat that I have dug up, I duely apologize. I did not want to waste your time, sorry.

[Lady Blackfish]

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