The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Phoenix-torn]

So...Mance plus Lyanna=Jon?...

Sorry...

The Silent Speaker, I think I understand what you're arguing. Even if the "blue rose in ice" is not literally a rose, it doesn't automatically prove that it's in relation to Jon. I get that.

I think ommitting Lyanna's connection to blue roses is problematic though. The roses have been mentioned in realtion to her a few times and specifically her and Rhaegar.

The second part is Ice. I associate Ice with The Wall, and when I think The Wall I think Jon, BUT the ice is less specific (for lack of a better term) clue than the blue rose. Ice could mean anyone at the wall, it could mean ned's sword, etc. Hell a blue rose could be an undead Florent, or Tyrell.

[cravenravenkeeper]

The Bael the Bard story.

Isn't that the one where the stark king lies about the paternity of the boy? Hmmm

[Errant Bard]

Generally speaking, because all the visions in the House of the Undying are meaningful revelations or insights into the plot, though we may not understand them.

You come from the future, to be certain of what exactly it reveals?

Fact is, the bride of fire triplet begins with a literal description, continues with one that nobody wants to link with what dead men with bright eyes have been developed to be so far (you read that right, if a blue rose is Lyanna, a dead man with bright eyes is an Other), and despite that, the blue rose is supposed to be 1) not literal 2) represent one person who is loosely associated to blue roses.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's above Martin to not jampack the mystery of the boy hero's parentage into the prophecy, but to make something more mundane, like the darkling beneath a sea of star. The rose grows near the wall, what's the problem with Jon meeting Dany there, and it's love at first sight, like Lyanna/Rhaegar?

But ok, you want some Lyanna link, what about the idea it represents Arya? Since you want the rose to be representative of what it has been associated to so far, I have to point that it always, always represents a Stark maid being kidnapped, not a boy, not a son, and not something that grows. It's loosely associated to love in socially non acceptable couples, but that's all. So whatever you do you have to twist the association, only you insist that it can only be twisted so that it means the conclusion you want to reach. Only Arya meets the actual association for the flower.

I think ommitting Lyanna's connection to blue roses is problematic though. The roses have been mentioned in realtion to her a few times and specifically her and Rhaegar.

That it is associated to her now doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Jon knows about the Bael the bard story so an actual blue rose, from a Stark, would be pretty meaningful especially if used to woo a Targaryen who is on top of that aware of the Harrenhal story. It's even pretty romantic, I think.

[Clemar the Sober]

»A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.«

I think that we all agree that the vision it self is significant in one way or another. As far I understand no one is also questioning the in a wall of ice part being actually The Wall.

Then there is also the second part of the vision and filled the air with sweetness. Over at The Citadel this part is explained as Danny falling in love, which in a way supports Errant Bards argument. So the question is if the blue flower really represents Jon.

I think that we might exclude the possibility that the blue flower is literally a flower. My argumentation why might sound week, but I don’t see the point why Danny should be shown a vision of something so trivial then an actual flower. Also the second part of the vision is not very plausible in this context.

So who are the candidates for the blue flower?

Let us first look at Jon, he could be the flower because he is a Stark, this is a week argument as the only Stark associated with blue flowers is Lyanna and the maid from the Bael the Bard story – as a side note in my opinion this story is there to show the reader what happened to Lyanna; it is like the story of the Rat Cook and the guest right in relation to the Red Wedding.

The argument gains on substance only if we assume that Jon is Lyannas son. The other things that speak in favor of Jon are that he is currently at the wall, that he is actually still growing and becoming a man, which could also explain the second part of the vision by Danny being attracted to the man he is going to become.

This however does not necessary mean that he is also Reaghars son, but if the Lyanna connection based on the blue flower is correct then the relation to Reaghar is not far fetch. In the end this vision could be the evidence that R+L = J is true.

Following the reasoning laid out by Errand Bard Arya could be the flower because she is a Stark maid. The issue here is that she not on the Wall, but she could be sent there by the FM, in addition if her task would be to kill any of Dannys competitors for the throne it could also explain the second part of her vision. I think it’s not very plausible that she will become Dannys lover.

The blue flower could represent also an Other, associated with the color blue, which might explain the crack = chink in the wall part, as bringing down the wall. Why Danny would be happy about these I don’t know. I know the last one is far fetched, but I wanted to have at least three candidates.

[Errant Bard]

As far I understand no one is also questioning the in a wall of ice part being actually The Wall.

Depends, if I have to argue about Arya being plausible, as I have already done before, I will argue that the wall of ice is not the wall, but a metaphorical wall of ice representing Arya's feelings and emotions.

I think that we might exclude the possibility that the blue flower is literally a flower. My argumentation why might sound week, but I don’t see the point why Danny should be shown a vision of something so trivial then an actual flower. Also the second part of the vision is not very plausible in this context.

The point is exactly the same no matter the details: it's in the "bride of fire" triplet, it shows her her third "husband". That you don't see it doesn't change the fact that I purposely did not change the meaning of the vision one iota with my example: it's still her meeting Jon at the Wall. Only, it seems that for the vision to be plausible it has to mean Jon is Lyanna's son, and nothing else is plausible.

Also, I have to point that she was shown the stream near which she first consummated her marriage, and this is pretty trivial. Why should the flower be held at a higher standard of non-triviality?

As for the "sweet perfume", once again, the first vision speaks of a "sea of stars". There was no sea above her. Why not have some poetic licence with the facts in prophecy to fit the mood?

So, essentially, what you're saying is that it's implausible not because it's actually implausible but because you don't like it, right? I'm fine with that, if it wasn't an echo of the board tendency to dismiss any interpretation that doesn't fit a R+L=J frame, not because the interpretation has no merit, but because everything has to fit the preordained conclusion that Jon is Belgarion.

[Edward the Great]

The rose grows near the wall, what's the problem with Jon meeting Dany there, and it's love at first sight, like Lyanna/Rhaegar?

I think it's a perfectly fine idea.

If the blue rose is a sign of love between Dany and Jon, what do you think the chances are that it will end happily?

But ok, you want some Lyanna link, what about the idea it represents Arya? Since you want the rose to be representative of what it has been associated to so far, I have to point that it always, always represents a Stark maid being kidnapped, not a boy, not a son, and not something that grows. It's loosely associated to love in socially non acceptable couples, but that's all. So whatever you do you have to twist the association, only you insist that it can only be twisted so that it means the conclusion you want to reach. Only Arya meets the actual association for the flower.

But what does Arya have to do with a wall of ice? Arya is still a maid and she is losing her Stark identity. She has cat dreams now instead of wolf dreams.

I read your other post. Wall of ice = Arya's emotions. That's plausible, at least. But why would the flower's scent please Dany's senses? Girl on girl love?

[Errant Bard]

If the blue rose is a sign of love between Dany and Jon, what do you think the chances are that it will end happily?

close to nil, no matter what it represents.

I read your other post. Wall of ice = Arya's emotions. That's plausible, at least. But why would the flower's scent please Dany's senses? Girl on girl love?

While there is a case to be made that Dany has been shown to be bisexual, I don't think she is really interested in women. I would thus interpret it more like it is Arya who makes everything sweet around her despite the cold frozen roots (somewhat like Rohanne Webber in the sworn sworn in term of mood contrast, if you see what I mean)

The "love" connection for the third "husband" I think only comes from the correlation between this: . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . and the bride of fire triplet. They seem to mirror each others, but that could be misdirection. Prophecies are treacherous beasts, as Martin warned through Marwyn. Marriage and love not being the same thing, it could be resolved, again, like in the sworn sword.

I must say, I'm not too fond of this theory though, it involves a line of development for Arya and for the story that I'm wary of, with the need to create a reason for Dany to want the marriage. Though thinking about it, if GRRM uses the dragon skinchanging, the alliance with FMs, the need for an heir with Dany barren and the claim to the North through Arya aspects, there could be a reason to make Arya a head of the dragon. Still, I prefer other paths for the girl.

[Clemar the Sober]

Depends, if I have to argue about Arya being plausible, as I have already done before, I will argue that the wall of ice is not the wall, but a metaphorical wall of ice representing Arya's feelings and emotions.

Ok. Good point.

Also, I have to point that she was shown the stream near which she first consummated her marriage, and this is pretty trivial. Why should the flower be held at a higher standard of non-triviality?

My point is that you cannot take the blue flower to be just a flower. If you do, you trivialize the vision it self, because the blue flower becomes a nonessential part of it. Even your hypothesis that the flower represents love is no longer met, as the flower is just a flower and nothing else.

The vision is then just the description of a growing plant on an ice wall which could be located anywhere in the North. The only thing we then get form the vision is the fact that Danny likes the smell of the flower. Is this a rational thing to assume?

As for the "sweet perfume", once again, the first vision speaks of a "sea of stars". There was no sea above her. Why not have some poetic licence with the facts in prophecy to fit the mood?

So, essentially, what you're saying is that it's implausible not because it's actually implausible but because you don't like it, right? I'm fine with that, if it wasn't an echo of the board tendency to dismiss any interpretation that doesn't fit a R+L=J frame, not because the interpretation has no merit, but because everything has to fit the preordained conclusion that Jon is Belgarion.

And again I’m not trying to twist the vision to confirm the R+L = J theory. I even like the idea that the blue flower represents the love or a token of love. But still if we follow this hypothesis what does it mean that the flower is growing? And also your theory still involves Jon, why?

I must nevertheless agree that your explanation of the vision can’t be dismissed easily and as I said in my post above for Jon being the blue flower we must first assume that he is Lyannas son, which by the way doesn’t necessarily means his also Rhegars.

The point is exactly the same no matter the details: it's in the "bride of fire" triplet, it shows her her third "husband". That you don't see it doesn't change the fact that I purposely did not change the meaning of the vision one iota with my example: it's still her meeting Jon at the Wall. Only, it seems that for the vision to be plausible it has to mean Jon is Lyanna's son, and nothing else is plausible.

But tell me which of the theories seem more likely?

[Edward the Great]

I would thus interpret it more like it is Arya who makes everything sweet around her despite the cold frozen roots (somewhat like Rohanne Webber in the sworn sworn in term of mood contrast, if you see what I mean)

Arya the murder machine makes everything sweet around her. I think you should stick with the other interpretation.

[the silent speaker]

As far I understand no one is also questioning the in a wall of ice part being actually The Wall.

I question it. I tie it with Bran's vision of Jon wrapping himself in coldness, and the blue flower (which could be Arya as easily as anything else) represents what will break through his own personal wall of ice. (As an aside, I think that learning that his bio parents were R+L would almost certainly not do this -- whoever his father is, he is Ned Stark's son.)

I do not, however, think that Dany is shown this because she will marry Jon, but for some other reason -- possibly some Other reason. As EB noted, prophecies are treacherous beasts, and I don't think Jon and Dany will marry.

[Errant Bard]

The vision is then just the description of a growing plant on an ice wall which could be located anywhere in the North. The only thing we then get form the vision is the fact that Danny likes the smell of the flower. Is this a rational thing to assume?

No, not any more than assuming the first vision would only show us that Dany likes darkling streams, silver and sea of stars. The vision represents an important moment with the third "husband", it doesn't have to narrow down the spatial location or the identity of the character involved. After all, there are streams and stars everywhere in the world, too.

But still if we follow this hypothesis what does it mean that the flower is growing? And also your theory still involves Jon, why?

It is growing in a chink of a wall of ice because GRRM has to use some verb. What do you say when you describe a place with some plant rooted in an improbable location? My theory involves Jon because I wanted it to mirror closely the one about R+L=J without involving additional meanings, just so I could throw back at you any arguments about the "point" of the vision.

Of course, Jon is also the Gary Stu of Westeros, so it's easier to argue like that than to convince anyone than miss Mary Sue will fall for anyone else. (ETA: I'm exaggerating to make my point clear, so please no arguments picking this line apart running along the lines of "OMG, Jon/Dany is definitely no mary sue because <lists reasons>", everyone knows that Jon and Dany are perceived as the "hero" couple by the majority)

But this interpretation focused on the descriptive properties of the vision would indeed allow anyone to be the third "husband"

But tell me which of the theories seem more likely?

I was talking about plausibility. I decline talking about the likeliness of anything related to R+L=J, since when you say you find R+L=J more likely than the alternative, it is taken as if you said that the other options are wrong and you agree R+L=J is canon, and when you say it's not you are drowned by a myriad of micro arguments about this detail and that, and how you are stupid to not agree.

Arya the murder machine makes everything sweet around her. I think you should stick with the other interpretation.

I think you missed the part where the flower growing out of the ice would mean that Arya would grow out of this mindset.

ETA: Oh, also, I lied, the rose could as easily represent Sansa and the Wall of ice, heh, there's the Eyrie not far, or alternatively, there's a pretty cold unforgiving setting around Sansa, everyone being her enemy, and she has to grow from it, out of it.

[Ser Howsmelly]

It is growing in a chink of a wall of ice because GRRM has to use some verb. What do you say when you describe a place with some plant rooted in an improbable location? My theory involves Jon because I wanted it to mirror closely the one about R+L=J without involving additional meanings, just so I could throw back at you any arguments about the "point" of the vision.

Alternate verbs re "growing": Planted, rooted, dying, existing, suffering etc. (Just off the top of my head)

Growing implies life, growth... I think it is limiting to say that GRRM HAD to use a verb and since plants are associated with growing that's why he used that particular word. I'm not saying that every word in this series has significance, but in this instance I believe it does.

[Errant Bard]

Alternate verbs re "growing": Planted, rooted, dying, existing, suffering etc. (Just off the top of my head)

And each carries a different nuance for one who wants the word to have a deep meaning. That this is this word instead of another is no argument as to if it holds a deep meaning or not.

I'm not saying that every word in this series has significance, but in this instance I believe it does.

Then we agree on the essential : that it is plausible that it could not hold any deep meaning. This was the root of the argument, that anything beside the usual R+L=J interpretation was implausible.

Belief in itself is not an argument, after all, except for the fundamentalists.

[Clemar the Sober]

And each carries a different nuance for one who wants the word to have a deep meaning. That this is this word instead of another is no argument as to if it holds a deep meaning or not.

Then we agree on the essential : that it is plausible that it could not hold any deep meaning. This was the root of the argument, that anything beside the usual R+L=J interpretation was implausible.

Belief in itself is not an argument, after all, except for the fundamentalists.

I agree with you that we should try to argue believes, as such theological debates often lead nowhere.

I think we strayed a little from the original topic. Anyway I believe we shouldn’t try to define the meaning of every word in the vision without taking into our considerations also the sentence as such.

The problem I see with this vision is that we don’t know if it represents the present or the future (I deliberately left out the past). If it is a vision of the future it can mean a bundle of things which may all seem plausible, but if it’s a vision of the present the most plausible solution is that it represents Jon at the Wall (I know there still a long way from this to assume R+L=J).

Are they any indications or even better explanation which visions are showing the past, present or future?

[Edward the Great]

And each carries a different nuance for one who wants the word to have a deep meaning. That this is this word instead of another is no argument as to if it holds a deep meaning or not.

Generally speaking, I don't think Martin is much of a master of English diction. You are probably getting more hung up on the choice of verb than he did.

[Shewoman]

dragomort, how do you know that the KG wouldn't protect Lyanna over the life of the king? I think it's likely that Rhaegar gave them their orders, and I doubt that "kill Lyanna" was one of them. See post 52 above: the KG can't choose their orders.

A case in point comes from Jaime, who is stationed outside of the queen's room with another member of the KG and hears the queen screaming in pain--but when he starts to try to intervene, his partner tells him they can't. THis is either in SoS or AFFC. I believe it takes place shortly before Rhaegar leaves KL for the last time.

[Edward the Great]

dragomort, how do you know that the KG wouldn't protect Lyanna over the life of the king? I think it's likely that Rhaegar gave them their orders, and I doubt that "kill Lyanna" was one of them. See post 52 above: the KG can't choose their orders.

The kingsguard are bound by oath to Aerys, not Rhaegar. And putting aside the issue of whether the Kingsguard have to obey Rhaegar's orders, why on earth would he command them to guard a mere consort?

Your reply also dodges the obvious implication of Aerys sending the 3 most conservative members of the kingsguard to retrieve Rhaegar precisely because he could count on their loyalty to him and not Rheagar. So all Rhaegar has to do is command all 3 of them to guard Lyanna and Aery's plans are partially foiled because Aerys forgot to tell the kingsguard to return to King's Landing? I can't believe the Martin would engage in such slipshod storytelling over such a darmatically compelling point in the story. It would genuinely ruin the entirety of A Song of Ice and Fire if that's all there was to it. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't always hit home runs - but this issue is crucial.

My own suspicion is that there was a deal between the two groups. The Kingsguard can't really force Rheagar to fight for his father, what are they going to do, kill him? And Rhaegar can't countermand is father's orders. I suspect Rheagar promised to fight in exchange for the 3 of them guarding his wife and child.

A case in point comes from Jaime, who is stationed outside of the queen's room with another member of the KG and hears the queen screaming in pain--but when he starts to try to intervene, his partner tells him they can't. THis is either in SoS or AFFC. I believe it takes place shortly before Rhaegar leaves KL for the last time.

Bad example, the kingsguard are bound by oath to Aerys, so obviously they aren't going to do anything to stop him.

I thought of a succint way to put this. If the kingsguard are expected to ignore Rhaegar if they have previous, conflicting orders from Aerys, then obviously they can CHOOSE which orders they obey and the infamous answer from Martin is a bunch of complete bullshit. It's rather pathetic that some people still cling to it.

[Rinso]

Actually, Edward's post made me ask myself a little bit of a sidetrack question. From whom exactly are the three KGs supposed to protect Lyanna? The rebels ain't gonna hurt her and the loyalists won't risk Rhaegar's wrath. And that's assuming that they would even know where she is.

[The Grey King]

Where are flowers linked to Jon at all? If you are thinking of Dany's vision of a blue flower in a chink in a wall of ice -- Jon is not mentioned in context of that vision at all; why can not the flower be as literal as the wall of ice is, and then there are no flowers to link to Jon?

I pointed at the vision of the blue rose not as the key piece of proof of the R+L=J theory (we obviously don't have any proof yet), but rather the point that I made the connection in my own mind. But I probably would have discarded this idea long ago if it weren't for all of the evidence available from Ned's thoughts in AGOT. We know that he thinks he's lived a lie for a period of time corresponding precisely to Jon's lifetime, that he goes to his grave wanting above almost all else to talk to Jon one last time, that he found Lyanna "in her bed of blood", and that he repeatedly thinks about how much she loved blue roses. Other POVs provide support: Bran dreams of Ned's ghost sad about something to do with Jon, for example, and we know for a fact that Rhaegar presented Lyanna with a blue rose. Thus before reading of Dany's vision, it's already easy to think that Lyanna might have given birth to a child and that Ned might have passed it off as his own bastard, Jon. When we then see yet another POV character, who has never met any of the others, have a vision of a blue rose (strongly associated with Lyanna and furthermore with the love between Rhaegar and Lyanna) sprouting from ice, it seems much more plausible that the rose and ice are a metaphor for Jon on the Wall. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that R+L=J is accurate.

You asserted that the flowers tie Jon to Rhaegar and Lyanna, but the only way the flowers tie Jon to anything is if you assume R+L=J first.

True, but I think there are indeed a number of sources in the books that lead us to have some belief in R+L=J first! I don't think that R+L=J is a theory that relies completely on any single passage from the books; it's the accumulation of many bits of information (clues, if the theory turns out to be true).

Your reply also dodges the obvious implication of Aerys sending the 3 most conservative members of the kingsguard to retrieve Rhaegar precisely because he could count on their loyalty to him and not Rheagar.

I don't quite know what you mean by "most conservative", but why would Arthur Dayne have been more likely to obey Aerys above Rhaegar than some other Kingsguard, when he was well known as Rhaegar's closest friend?

My own suspicion is that there was a deal between the two groups. The Kingsguard can't really force Rheagar to fight for his father, what are they going to do, kill him? And Rhaegar can't countermand is father's orders. I suspect Rheagar promised to fight in exchange for the 3 of them guarding his wife and child.

Despite my quibble above, I think this is a good point. It's reasonable to think that even Dayne, Rhaegar's buddy, would have felt enough loyalty to Aerys to be part of the group that went to Rhaegar and shamed him into fighting at the Trident, perhaps at Aerys' orders. And even if Rhaegar wasn't reluctant to fight, he may have just felt an even greater obligation to Lyanna and waited until she was safe; no doubt he would have trusted such honorable men and skilled warriors to guard her well.

Actually, Edward's post made me ask myself a little bit of a sidetrack question. From whom exactly are the three KGs supposed to protect Lyanna? The rebels ain't gonna hurt her and the loyalists won't risk Rhaegar's wrath. And that's assuming that they would even know where she is.

Robert's Rebellion was obviously a pretty big war, and war generally leads to a lot of chaos, brigands roaming the countryside taking advantage of the disorder to rape and pillage, etc. If I had to leave my beautiful pregnant wife behind and go to war, it's something I'd be worried about. The lack of public information in Westeros on what actually went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna tells me that he wanted to keep a low profile with respect to the two of them and was very selective about who he trusted. A small group of incredibly loyal, discreet, and very talented fighters would be ideal.

[Rinso]

Robert's Rebellion was obviously a pretty big war, and war generally leads to a lot of chaos, brigands roaming the countryside taking advantage of the disorder to rape and pillage, etc. If I had to leave my beautiful pregnant wife behind and go to war, it's something I'd be worried about. The lack of public information in Westeros on what actually went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna tells me that he wanted to keep a low profile with respect to the two of them and was very selective about who he trusted. A small group of incredibly loyal, discreet, and very talented fighters would be ideal.

The biggest fighting in the war happened in the Riverlands. There was some in the Stormlands as well, near the beginning and the ending of the war. But the area of Dorne, where the Tower of Joy supposedly was located, was relatively safe. Besides, to protect Lyanna from some hypothetical brigands, Rhaegar sends away the Lord Commander of the KG and the best warrior in the KG, along with one more dude, while leaving his father, his brother, his pregnant mother, his wife and his children to the protection of one KG (!), and him being the most rash and inexperienced member of the bunch? When unlike the imaginary brigands, they are in a very real danger? Something ain't right here... But we are talking about Rhaegar the Irrational here, so it's probably okay :unsure:

Oh! One more question, while I'm on the topic!

If the three KGs at the tower were charged to protect Lyanna, why did they try to fight (and I assume, kill) Ned? He's her brother and it's obvious that he won't hurt her. Besides, if there was a marriage between her and Rhaegar, wouldn't that make Ned a part of the royal family they are sworn to protect and obey? We see that was the case with Tyrion, who was Cersei's brother - he was considered a part of the royal family by Robert's/Joff's KG.

To me, their behavior looked like that of captors, not of protectors.