The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Liadin]

Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. The fact that Lyanna's choice mattered to Ned is clearly demonstrated by the very small coterie he brought with him to the Tower of Joy in hostile territory while a war was going on when he was sent south with an army that was presumably large enough to go toe to toe with House Tyrell. It can only mean that he intended to send Lyanna into exile.

Whaaa...? It can mean lots of things. Could mean he thought it would be easier to reach the ToJ with a small group, or that the army was tied up elsewhere, or that he didn't want Robert to know where he was going and insist on going with him, or that he didn't want to risk hostilities with House Tyrell when it was time for rebuilding, or any number of things. Had Lyanna lived, he might have taken her home, or insisted she marry Robert anyway, or any number of other things.

I don't know man, 15 years may seem like a long time, but if someone kidnapped and raped your sister I think no amount of time would reduce your enmity towards the one responsible, especially for someone like Ned. I think that the lack of hatred he displays towards Rhaegar is indicative of something else.

Even in the best-case scenario, Rhaegar convinced Lyanna to leave her home and responsibilities and run away with him, started a war, which led to the deaths of Ned's father and brother, and ultimately knocked her up, which killed her. Even if Ned doesn't believe it was rape, he'd still have to be pretty forgiving to not feel some enmity. I think it has more to do with time passing and Rhaegar being dead than anything else.

[Rockroi]

Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. The fact that Lyanna's choice mattered to Ned is clearly demonstrated by the very small coterie he brought with him to the Tower of Joy in hostile territory while a war was going on when he was sent south with an army that was presumably large enough to go toe to toe with House Tyrell. It can only mean that he intended to send Lyanna into exile.

I am not so sure about this. I think the small party is not proof of anything. My take has always been that Ned did not want an army traipsing through Dorne as he was on a fact-finding mission. If he brought an Army to Dorne- a proud, prickly, highly motivated land -he could spark a drawn out war. Dorne sent a force to the Trident, largely under protest; Ned probably knew that the bulk of their forces were still in Dorne. No need to instigate there. Ned could easily have left his army in the lowlands and gone on to find Lyanna or find the KG.

I am not saying I disagree with you in totality; what I am saying is that some evidence is not really evidence.

Even in the best-case scenario, Rhaegar convinced Lyanna to leave her home and responsibilities and run away with him, started a war, which led to the deaths of Ned's father and brother, and ultimately knocked her up, which killed her. Even if Ned doesn't believe it was rape, he'd still have to be pretty forgiving to not feel some enmity. I think it has more to do with time passing and Rhaegar being dead than anything else.

What is Rhaegar, a used car salesman? He "convinced" her to leave her home? Uh... maybe she wanted to leave? Why does everyone on these boards try to treat Lyanna like a coffee table? As in, Rhaegar was just hanging out one day and decided, "You know, I want that." And Lyanna had no say in the matter. I mean, Ned HIMSELF recognizes that Lyanna played just as much a roll in her relationship with Rhaegar as he did when he tacitly remembers Lyanna musing about Robert; how "love does not change a man's nature." And by "nature" she meant "insatiable appetite for whoring." What was Lyanna to have? A life of Robert and his base-born children? Of "looking the other way?" Lyanna knew full well- even if she NEVER MET HER -that Cersei Lannister did not turn Robert Baratheon into a fat, drunken womanizer; Robert Baratheon was ALWAYS that way -he just needed time to get there.

Ned is a practical guy; he knows that Brandon and Aerys were far more responsible for the tragedy of the realm than Rhaegar (interestingly enough, Ned has virtually no internal monologue about Brandon, yet does about Rhaegar, and its ALWAYS positive). Rhaegar could not possibly have forseen what would transpire. Nobody could.

Rhaegar ultimately "knocked her up" which killed her is also not something Ned could really hold againt Rhaegar (unless, of course, he DID rape her) because, once again, Lyanna had a say in all that. I mean, do you really think Ned held it against Rhaegar that he got Lyanna pregnant? By that logic, Tywin is perfectly justified in hating Tyrion because Tyrion "killed" his wife. Its absurd.

Does Ned feel some emnity? I am sure he does, but probably not nearly to the extent you suggest (again, we were in his head for 10 chapters; he never has a course thought about Rhaegar). I believe that Ned feels that Rhaegar and Lyanna are equal partners in a foolish decision that ultimately lead to both their deaths. But there is CLEARLY a more proximate cause for their demise: the Mad King. And I think that no matter how much logical twisting we try to do, Ned's hatred was ALWAYS properly focused on Aerys the Mad.

When push came to shove and Robert said to Ned "At least say I was a better King than Rhaegar would have been" Ned clams up. When a dying Robert says he was "worse than Aerys" Ned cannot disagree fast enough, practically falling all over himself to remind Robert how horrible Aerys was.

Ned knows the deal there. He does not seem able to blame Rahegar for ... anything. But Aerys? He has no problems.

[Dreadwolf]

Ned has virtually no internal monologue about Brandon, yet does about Rhaegar, and its ALWAYS positive).

I am not sure whether you take into account that once Ned nevertheless did quite a positive remark about Brandon. While (IIRC) it was not a monologue but his exchange with Catelyn. The general meaning was that <Brandon would know what to do in that situation – He always knew>

Otherwise I agree with your point about Ned/ Rhaegar generally positive attitude.

Does Ned feel some emnity? … (again, we were in his head for 10 chapters; he never has a course thought about Rhaegar).

Once again and mainly for the sake of speculative arguments –

We also never got a single line or thought about Ashara(IIRC correct me if I am wrong). (save from his famous drop although received from Catelyn*s PoV chapter <…I would see from where you got that name my lady … and I would take care that it will be never happened again in my castle>

That (especially the fact that he never dreamt on her) could mean many things including all that rumors of a love story (Ned –Ashara) started in Harenhall was pure myth. Anyway it is not sufficient so we can conclusively make our minds. In fact as if most of the readers expect that there was something there.

[Ashur]

That (especially the fact that he never dreamt on her) could mean many things including all that rumors of a love story (Ned –Ashara) started in Harenhall was pure myth. Anyway it is not sufficient so we can conclusively make our minds. In fact as if most of the readers expect that there was something there.

It's a huge mystery involving Ned, the Daynes, Rhaegar, Lyanna and the ToJ. I don't believe in the Ned-Ashara love story, but i think they were together into something. Not only Howland Reed, but DarkStar, they can put a light into this mess.

Rhaegar's shadow is casting all over Westeros. Definitely, we need to know more about him in order to understand the whole R+L=J thing.

[automne]

IMO Ned's never thinking of Ashara in his POV doesn't mean the Ned-Ashara love story was never real. It may just be that it would have been too painful for Ned to think about Ashara again. That's the woman he may have loved and forsaken because of the war.

[bacchys]

I don't know man, 15 years may seem like a long time, but if someone kidnapped and raped your sister I think no amount of time would reduce your enmity towards the one responsible, especially for someone like Ned. I think that the lack of hatred he displays towards Rhaegar is indicative of something else.

I don't rule out "something else," but "someone like Ned" is cold, relatively emotionless. If anyone was to get over hatreds after 15 years, Eddard Stark is that man. He doesn't think with anger about Aerys, either, even though he tortured his father and brother to death.

[Kemm]

Dany once saw scenes of the past (of Rhaegar) in that haunted mansion of the blue-lipped wizards. If some character (mainly Jon or Dany), via magic, were to be transported to a Rhaegar PoV, THAT would bring a lot of things to light. But since it has an almost zero probability to happen, guess we can't access to that source.

[K@li]

hi all, first apologies for bad grammar and such, english isn't my mother language :(

anyway, some pretty fascinating theories here. i'm quite into R+L=J theory,too, and after reading the books and this topic (haven't had time to read others, so sorry if i missed some older discussion and am on a totally wrong topic) i can't help but wonder - and someone already mentioned it here, well, I can see some big battle against zhe Others at the end of the books. so, if whoever and however defeated the Others for good, I think there would no longer be a need for the Wall and the Night Watch. So, if Jon was presented with the opportunity to claim his right to the throne as a Targaryen, he would have no oaths that would keep him from taking he throne, right? and continuing the bloodline. especially if Danny is really barren. but then again, if she is, he would need some other woman to produce new Targaryen heirs. I know this is very far-fetched,and just one of many different lines this story could go, but it's still rather entertaining to think about it, especially whom might be a potential mother. and how would Danny react to it. btw, never before thought about posibility of Jon getting somehow his own dragons and ending fighting against Danny, but seems as very interesting and plausible idea, if we take it than Jon is really of Targaryen bloodline. it would really be another Dance of the dragons :D

[Edward the Great]

We don't know that Ned had any evidence of Lyanna's choice prior to his arrival at The Tower of Joy.

We have circumstantial evidence. Brandon's demand that "Rhaegar come out and die" or some such doesn't really make sense if he thought Lyanna was kidnapped. It does make sense if he looks on her as stolen property.

There's Ned's flashback of Lyanna confiding to him that she doesn't want to marry Robert. That flashback contains one of the best quotes in the history of mankind. "Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." It's so obviously true that it's a wonder nobody else had written it down previously. Perhaps because so much fiction is an attempt to pretend otherwise?

Then there's the exact circumstances of Ned showing up at the Tower with a few high ranking bannermen loyal to him personally and the fact he didn't call for reinforcements when confronted with the only 3 men in the world who stood a good chance of killing him and his 6 companions.

It's loose, but it's real.

I will bet a Snicker's bar here and now that Jon will never take the Iron Throne as a Targaryen, whether he knows who his parents are or not.

[wolfdroppings]

I’ve noticed that one of the main arguments against R+L=J is Jon’s appearance. I do think this might represent a valid argument against R+L=J, but not an overwhelming one. I have two theories as to why Jon looks the way he does. First, maybe he just favors his mother and looks more Starkish like her. Most believers seem to accept this. My second theory is more of a reach, but it is a theory to this point that can neither be proven or disproved. Maybe Jon does have purple eyes and platinum hair. It is possible that Howland Reed simply put a glamour on Jon to hide his appearance. If the FM can do it and the shadowbinders of Asshai can do it (Mel and Stannis’s “Lightbringer”), who is to say that the magic of the children of the forests can’t accomplish a glamour as well. Yes, I realize it has become cliché to mark out to Howland Reed to solve any mystery involving the Starks and Jon. Just a thought here.

On a different subject, Jon will make the same choice as Maester Aemon. He won’t take the iron throne.

[Edward the Great]

It is possible that Howland Reed simply put a glamour on Jon to hide his appearance.

If it is so, then Mel will see through it. We will get a POV in the 5th book.

[Bastard of Winterfell]

Brandon's demand that "Rhaegar come out and die" or some such doesn't really make sense if he thought Lyanna was kidnapped.

Actually it does.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Actually it does.

I agree with El Bastardo. Brandon was impulsive and hot tempered. His riding forth and challenging the one responsible for kidnapping his sister (in his mind) would seem to be perfectly within his character from what we've been allowed to see of it.

[nana&crow]

One of my biggest fears is that GRRM will do a "Lost" and change the plot because so many people sussed his original intention (or because a lot of people, for reasons I don't understand, would be really disappointed if it turned out to be the case). If he does that, then the whole thing could become a complete mess!

in the case R+L=J is true and the fans have guessed it right I assume it is because GRRM wanted us to

read into this, so I don't think he would play the "lost" card and change everything for change's sake.

his books are not about how much he can surprise the reader with the next plot twist, he is telling a

very complicated story in doses and some information gets to us before and some after.

[Spring Bass]

I’ve noticed that one of the main arguments against R+L=J is Jon’s appearance. I do think this might represent a valid argument against R+L=J, but not an overwhelming one. I have two theories as to why Jon looks the way he does. First, maybe he just favors his mother and looks more Starkish like her. Most believers seem to accept this.

It's not unprecedented for the child of a Targaryen to not have the typical traits (silver-blond hair, purple eyes) when one of their parents didn't have them. I'm pretty sure GRRM described Rhaegar's daughter as having Dornish traits, and there was a Targaryen in The Hedge Knight that had non-Targaryen traits as well. That's why I don't really think it's a viable argument.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

It's not unprecedented for the child of a Targaryen to not have the typical traits (silver-blond hair, purple eyes) when one of their parents didn't have them. I'm pretty sure GRRM described Rhaegar's daughter as having Dornish traits, and there was a Targaryen in The Hedge Knight that had non-Targaryen traits as well. That's why I don't really think it's a viable argument.

This is true, and yet all Lannisters are blonde with green eyes and have been for thousands of years.

[Rockroi]

It's not unprecedented for the child of a Targaryen to not have the typical traits (silver-blond hair, purple eyes) when one of their parents didn't have them. I'm pretty sure GRRM described Rhaegar's daughter as having Dornish traits, and there was a Targaryen in The Hedge Knight that had non-Targaryen traits as well. That's why I don't really think it's a viable argument.

Also do not forget that Baelor Breakspear (Daeron the Good's first son) looked far more like his mother (Dornish) than he did his father (Targ). In fact, when Duncan meets him, he thinks he looks more a commoner than a King. Sounds like Jon Snow to me...

[Spring Bass]

This is true, and yet all Lannisters are blonde with green eyes and have been for thousands of years.

No, they haven't. Go re-read the section where Ned confronts Cersei - he mentally goes over in his head the incidents where Baratheons married Lannisters, and specifically how the children always, always had the black hair that characterized Baratheon family members.

[garfner]

Im a believer in R+L=J but the fight at the toj always seemed weird to me.

If R and L were married then L would be carrying the heir to the throne and would be the queen mother. It would seem highly unlikely that all 3 of the KG would logically deduct that their best course of action would be to kill the uncle(who is one of the most powerful men in the realm)of their new king. How would that be considered protecting the king? Wouldn't they at least wait until The Queen and the Warden of the North spoke before they decided on their best course of action? Its not like Ned was pushing for a fight. All three decide to kill the uncle of the King and the brother of Prince Rheagars beloved wife?

Rape seems unlikely to me as well for 2 reasons. 1. Jorahs comment to Dany. He noticed that she was like Rhaegar when she put a ban on rape. And this coming from a guy who fought against Rhaegar. 2. Neds disposition at the toj. If Ned believed his beloved sister had been kidnapped and raped, would he have acted this way? Strange conversation to be having with the guys standing between you and your raped sister. I also feel that the quiet wolf new the score at Harrenhall.

Ive always felt the most logical answer to this strange fight was that there was another Targ at the toj. Then the KG would have no other alternative.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

"If R and L were married..."

They weren't, at least not to anyone's knowledge. As far as I know polygamy is probably illegal in Westeros, especially for Crown Princes.

"Rape seems unlikely to me as well for 2 reasons."

Agreed, for the reasons you've stated and others. The point you make about Ned knowing the score at the TOJ is sort of flawed, though: if he knew beforehand that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, then why go to the TOJ in the first place? She doesn't need to be rescued, because she's not a prisoner. I figure that up until he got to her bedside he was laboring under the assumption that Rhaegar was the kidnapping rapist that Robert and Brandon had painted him as.

Unless it was a move to bring her back to Robert regardless of her wishes (because she was betrothed to him and Ned didn't want to break the marriage alliance with Robert)

Ive always felt the most logical answer to this strange fight was that there was another Targ at the toj. Then the KG would have no other alternative.

I always figured that the baby that Lyanna had just given birth to was the Targ, and that the KG would still give protection to even a bastard child of the Crown Prince.