I'll start the gun control debate

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Let's look at this from a different point of view--not the usual "yes you idiots we should have it" and the "no you idiots we shouldn't have it".

I've been a strong supporter of no gun control in the United States despite my personal preference never to own a firearm. I was in the military for a number of years, I'm not afraid of guns, I kind of like shooting them, but nonetheless, they are too dangerous around the house with my son running around, in my opinion.

So there is a recent shooting, and instead of that thread getting derailed by the discussion let's have it here.

I've changed my mind on gun control--strangely enough, I saw a brief segment on the Dunblane Massacre on television today. I hadn't ever heard of it before, but from what I understand this is what led to gun control in the UK. Correct me if I'm wrong--I may have misunderstood given the shock of the story itself.

Seventeen people died there--the majority of which were 1st grade students. A legal licensed gun owner did it.

From the, albeit, limited research I've done, it seems as though gun control in the UK has greatly reduced these kinds of incidents from happening. UK boarders who can attest to this please let me know if that's correct.

So it would appear to me as though gun control did in fact hugely limit not only gun related fatalities, but massacres too.

I'm sick of all this killing--I seriously am. Constitutional right or not, it is clear we, as humans, are not ready to have a right to arms because a significant portion of our population seems inches away from snapping.

So, the UK bans guns (even hunting rifles? I'm not sure) and gun related crimes plummet.

My question is this--if the US were to ban guns how would we go about enforcing this? I mean so many guns in this country--would we have an amnesty period to drop our guns in drop boxes like when I was in the army and we deployed and we had an amnesty room where we could drop contraband for 24 hours without penalty? Cash for Guns program? I think the nightmare of enforcing gun control at this point has probably staved it off.

I just can't get the image out of my head--sixteen dead 1st graders in Scotland. The people there took action so it wouldn't happen again. Why can't we do that as Americans? Is it so bad to give up our weapons, if we're responsible Americans, for the safety of others?

I'd also like to say--if this thread is a no-no, then I apologize. I seem to get the impression this topic has left some open wounds in the past, though I've been around for a long time and haven't seen the discussion crop up in a long time.

With all the mass murders happening in America, and they are rocketing, don't we have to do something as citizens?

[TrueMetis]

It's a hell of a question but to all my knowledge most gun crime are commited with illegal guns anyway. So banning them wouldn't do much but make it so that only criminals have guns. all this and more is explained very well by Penn and Teller

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I mean that's what I always heard too--we'll just disarm the honest citizens, but then looking at models for gun control where it's worked, do we assume they only had model citizens?

[Shryke]

It's a hell of a question but to all my knowledge most gun crime are commited with illegal guns anyway. So banning them wouldn't do much but make it so that only criminals have guns. all this and more is explained very well by Penn and Teller

Penn and Teller's show is, itself, Bullshit. Don't try and use it to prove anything.

[TrueMetis]

I mean that's what I always heard too--we'll just disarm the honest citizens, but then looking at models for gun control where it's worked, do we assume they only had model citizens?

Unless I'm misremembering in america you can only get a gun legally if you don't have a criminal record and most people aren't going to start with murder and if they do it would probably be a crime of passion which means choking, stabbing, etc.

Anyway were has it worked? I'll try to find the statistic but in Europe and definatly Canada gun crime is as high or higher than it is in the U.S.

[TrueMetis]

Penn and Teller's show is, itself, Bullshit. Don't try and use it to prove anything.

They have a research team. Do you? They have provided evidence that gun control doesn't work.

[Shryke]

They have a research team. Do you? They have provided evidence that gun control doesn't work.

They lie and distort facts and have actually been caught at it (see: the Second Hand Smoke episode).

They are also hardcore libertarians and will push that viewpoint in any episode related to libertarian ideals. (see: Gun Control). Often to the exclusion of the actual facts at hand.

And frankly, why would you trust the word of a pair of guys who specialize in psychological manipulation and deception, professionally, without backup from other sources?

[Shryke]

Anyway were has it worked? I'll try to find the statistic but in Europe and definatly Canada gun crime is as high or higher than it is in the U.S.

Um .... what? Are you high?

[TrueMetis]

They lie and distort facts and have actually been caught at it (see: the Second Hand Smoke episode).

They are also hardcore libertarians and will push that viewpoint in any episode related to libertarian ideals. (see: Gun Control). Often to the exclusion of the actual facts at hand.

And frankly, why would you trust the word of a pair of guys who specialize in psychological manipulation and deception, professionally, without backup from other sources?

They admited they were wrong about the second hand smoke thing. Other than that find me an example were they lied or distorted facts.

They do put out there Ideals but the Gun control episode is a bad example All they were doing there is advocating the constitution which is something I would think everbody in America would want.

Why would I trust them Because in my experiance you get two kinds of people people who use emotion and other bullshit like that to get what they want and people who look at things logically but don't care enough to talk about it. These guys give a third option, Well that and they're fucking hilarious comedians tend to tell it like it is.

Um .... what? Are you high?

I've looked at it and it seems I was wrong. So nevermind

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Um .... what? Are you high?

If it isn't true I'd like to know. I've always assumed gun crime was DOWN in those countries, but I have heard this statement that it is higher than the US. So that's something we might address. I'll see what I can find, but you live in Canada--right? Do you have anything you can help dig up? I'd be interested to know.

I mean honestly--if it'll keep kids from getting killed in school, then I think we're being grossly irresponsible as a nation for not doing it sooner.

I guess I'd like to cut through all the BS about it. What is the truth? What can we verify with statistics? Is it bullshit that countries with gun control have worse gun related crime? These are the things we're fed in our country when the topic comes up. The discussion is not honest here. So I'd like to see it honest.

[Stubby]

The catalyst for gun control here was the Port Arthur Massacre. It happened six weeks after Dunblane. The main thing the Fed Govt did at the time was to ban semi-automatic rifles, automatic everything and shotguns. The Govt conducted a buy-back of weapons that were retrospectively made illegal. It was a huge controversy at the time, but it seems to be a non-event from a news POV nowadays.

This Wiki page has links to all sorts of studies about the impact of the control laws. It seems that the overall impact has not been statistcally settled.

[Shryke]

They admited they were wrong about the second hand smoke thing. Other than that find me an example were they lied or distorted facts.

They do put out there Ideals but the Gun control episode is a bad example All they were doing there is advocating the constitution which is something I would think everbody in America would want.

Why would I trust them Because in my experiance you get two kinds of people people who use emotion and other bullshit like that to get what they want and people who look at things logically but don't care enough to talk about it. These guys give a third option, Well that and they're fucking hilarious comedians tend to tell it like it is.

They admitted they were wrong only after they were grabbed by the scruff of their necks and had their faces rubbed in their own shit like an unhousebroken dog and still never admitted they deliberately took that dump. Not a trustworthy source of information.

[TrueMetis]

They admitted they were wrong only after they were grabbed by the scruff of their necks and had their faces rubbed in their own shit like an unhousebroken dog and still never admitted they deliberately took that dump. Not a trustworthy source of information.

The same thing is true about pretty much every news station in the world should we not trust any of them? And if one incident is all you have then don't bother.

[Skyrazer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

Scroll down a bit to the "International homicides by country" list and sort by "Firearm homicide rate per 100,000 pop". I know it's a bit dated at 2000 and doesn't include non-homicide firearm offences, but it's the best list of reference I could find after a bit of trawling that makes a country-to-country comparison.

[TrueMetis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

Scroll down a bit to the "International homicides by country" list and sort by "Firearm homicide rate per 100,000 pop". I know it's a bit dated at 2000 and doesn't include non-homicide firearm offences, but it's the best list of reference I could find after a bit of trawling that makes a country-to-country comparison.

To bad it doesn't say how many of those were done by illegal firearms.

[Shryke]

Yeah. Obviously we should shut down the factories producing "Illegal Firearms" and just keep the ones producing "Legal Firearms".

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I think one of the main arguments for citizens keeping their guns is self protection agaist an armed intruder.

The normal response to this is if ordanry citizens no longer have guns in their posession then the criminal doesn't feel he needs a gun to commit the crime and is more likely to take a knife or bat instead (as carring guns means higher sentaceces) although I imagaine it takes a long while for this to filter through.

Aslo you have the fact that if both the intruder and the citizen is armed then someone is very likely to get shot (and its 50-50 who. If only one is armed (and knows the other is unarmed) there is a better chance both people live. Yeah they mat steek your stuff. and its not gonna protect you against nutcases that just deciede to harm anyone they find cos they can.

now I have no idea if any of these assumptions and normall responses is actually true, but its an argument I have heard many times.

[Frank Stark]

I don't know that I'd ever advocate a total gun ban without statistical proof that it works... and from the above it sounds like it's still being debated.

What I don't understand is why we can't have a little more gun control. See, I don't think "gun control" = "no guns."

For example, I still hear that gun shows at convention centers ignore the laws that retail stores have to obey (at least people in Boston still think so; there's a huge ad on the side of Fenway decrying the practice at trade shows).

Also, IIRC, the VT shooter bought his guns legally. WTF?!?!? The guy had a history of mental illness and had been referred to a mental institution. Does it really take a previous criminal record to prevent someone from buying a gun? It's ridiculous. I get it if you want to own a gun, but your personal background better be spotless. SPOT-less.

[TrackerNeil]

No disrespect intended, but to be honest it's no use for Americans to debate this issue any more. The NRA and its allies have in my view won the day. No matter how many school shootings happen or how big a majority Democrats hold in Congress, we can't pass even the most reasonable gun control legislation. So instead of being frustrated and disbelieving, I choose to care as little as possible.

[Tears of Lys]

Sadly, I agree with TrackerNeil.

I admit I'm torn on this topic, though - a typical Libran state of mind.