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"Under Heaven", the new Guy Gavriel Kay


Calibandar

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Having just finished the book,* I’d say I agree with Pat’s review on most points. Where I do disagree is that I wouldn’t rank Under Heaven as highly as Tigana, which for me is still superior for raw emotional impact.

The good:

As I’d expect from GGK, the writing and language are gorgeous. The world building is solid, and I was happy to see a non-European country used for inspiration. The characterization is excellent, and makes the book. The themes (which I won’t go into for fear of spoilers) are well developed and leave you thinking.

The bad:

My complaints are minor and can’t be explained without spoilers. There was one aspect I really wish had been delved into more. And I disliked the eventual fate of two secondary characters, but I suspect I may be in the minority in this case.

*Amazon Canada has the book already, if one is willing to pay the shipping.

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Wow, one of the best books you've ever read, huh?

Would you recommend it to someone who couldn't finish The Lions of Al-Rassan due to Stu-ness and pacing issues? I hear great stuff about Kay, but it may be that he just doesn't do it for me.

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Would you recommend it to someone who couldn't finish The Lions of Al-Rassan due to Stu-ness and pacing issues? I hear great stuff about Kay, but it may be that he just doesn't do it for me.

If you did not like Lions of Al-Rassan, you will probably not like Under Heaven, no. Kay's pacing and character styles are fairly consistent in his alternate earth novels.

That being said, I agree with Pat's review of the novel --- it is definately my favorite novel of the year thus far, and most of the reviews have been positive... so you may want to give him another chance ;)

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If you did not like Lions of Al-Rassan, you will probably not like Under Heaven, no. Kay's pacing and character styles are fairly consistent in his alternate earth novels.

I'd agree that this might not be a good book for you, koolkat. The pacing isn't going to be for everyone, as the story builds slowly at first followed by a lot of momentum at the end.

But, I think those people who are concerned about Stu-ness will be pleased with this book. I'd be surprised if anyone called the main character a Gary Stu. I can see how one of the secondary characters could be called a Sue, but that's it, imho.

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I don't mind slow pacing in all circumstances by any means, but in Lions it felt like the plot ground to a halt so Kay could tell us how awesome his characters were. Ah well.... I think I'll just have to accept the fact that a lot of intelligent people liking an author doesn't mean I'm ever going to.

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Given that The Lions of Al-Rassan is one of Kay's strongest novels, it just might be that GGK is not for you. I'd give Tigana a shot instead of Under Heaven, if only because you can get it on the cheap in paperback. And if you don't like it, chances are that you'll never like anything written by Kay. . .

Patrick

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I don't mind slow pacing in all circumstances by any means, but in Lions it felt like the plot ground to a halt so Kay could tell us how awesome his characters were. Ah well.... I think I'll just have to accept the fact that a lot of intelligent people liking an author doesn't mean I'm ever going to.

For me, it's just part of reading his novels. Are there times when I think, 'okay

already, we get it, they're all smart!' Sure. But the books still work for me.

I mean, there's plenty of good novelists that make me scratch my head. Cormac, why the eff do you punctuate like that? J.R.R., can we leave off with the descriptions of the landscape!

But I still love those books.

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I'd hardly call it the "book of the year" simply because such a title does not exist. Plus despite my over-weening cynicism, I have faith the rest of the year will deliver some worthy contenders. Not to mention that I strongly suspect despite my Kay adoration, he is not a fit for the huge majority of the genre's fans. Plus after all the nose hair pulling and weeping tears of woe for the duplicity of some early readers of Morgan's The Steel Remains daring to praise the book to expectations never ultimately realized and such opinions dismissed haughtily with pearls clutched in outrage, I think such declarations for the rest of us aren't really needed. I mean that sort of falls into hype doesn't it? Or is it only hype when someone else does it for a book not cared for by the other? I forget.

Still I think there is plenty out there that could be in contention for the non-existent title.

Regina, I think the stu complainers could have a bit of complaining to do. I don't think he even comes close to such an offense, but I've never thought any of his other characters other than the overly self-aware teen in Ysabel comes even close to being a stu. Again though, for me if any of the other leads in Kay's works are stus, then every single lead character in a fantasy novel I've read are stus to enormous offense and novel failure.

I actually agree, I'm presuming, as to the two characters' fates, but I also agree that it was author's choice more than a style or writing aspect flaw.

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J.R.R., can we leave off with the descriptions of the landscape!

You mean stop the poems and songs.

Anyways, I've never read Kay but I'd like to give Tigana a shot. If I like it I'll be reading A Song For Arbonne and then Under Heaven.

Anything this board praises with such passion and consistency is sure to be worth a read.

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You mean stop the poems and songs.

Anyways, I've never read Kay but I'd like to give Tigana a shot. If I like it I'll be reading A Song For Arbonne and then Under Heaven.

Anything this board praises with such passion and consistency is sure to be worth a read.

I connect with the characters on an emotional level. I realize that I'm being manipulated, but enjoy it anyway. I probably re-read 'Lions' every few years.

--

So far, the new book is reading most like the Sarantine novels. The characters being pushed along towards a conclusion they can't escape. I'm enjoying the ride so far. (about halfway through)

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Gyre

That said though, I do believe you said a while ago that this was your favorite read of the year sofar right?

In any case, I have received my Canadian HC edtion yesterday. Very nice, maps, dramatis personae, though all in slimmed down form compared to usual fantasy epics as well. Starts out interestingly.

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Hmmm, I'm reading early parts now and I would say from what I have read sofar, there is an interesting novel here, worth purchasing for sure, but I am still missing that fire that was in early Kay books.

Tigana's magical atmosphere, the mythical quality of the Fionavar Tapestry, the sheer awesome storytelling and characters of Lions, all of that stuff I rate very highly. I still need to read a few other Kay books, fortunately. The writing here is very good as we know with Kay, but it's not quite as engaging a tale sofar. Still, many miles to go.

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I've got mine yesterday from the library, so will get on it as soon as I finish my current read. Sounds promissing from your notes, guys. I didn't like Tigana, btw, but I loved AlRassan. Keeping fingers crossed that it compares! I barely managed TLLotS, and gave up on Ysabel.

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My "baby" sister is reading Under Heaven. She doesn't read a lot of genre fiction (I introduced her to Kay 10 or 15 years ago) but she studies cultural theory. She says it's mostly a good story, but also egregious that the most beautiful people have European physical features (light hair, light larger eyes).

Does anyone else want to comment. Are the best looking people the ones who look the most "white" and the least "Asian" - and is this justified adequately in your mind?

I'll post again when I've actually read the book - probably not for another couple months since I'll be moving soon.

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My "baby" sister is reading Under Heaven. She doesn't read a lot of genre fiction (I introduced her to Kay 10 or 15 years ago) but she studies cultural theory. She says it's mostly a good story, but also egregious that the most beautiful people have European physical features (light hair, light larger eyes).

Does anyone else want to comment. Are the best looking people the ones who look the most "white" and the least "Asian" - and is this justified adequately in your mind?

I'll post again when I've actually read the book - probably not for another couple months since I'll be moving soon.

I'd have to go back and look at the description of the Empress again. I know that the first minister's concubine is blond and has green eyes, but she's Sardian, and was sold because she was exotic.

The young empress is often described as one of the four beauties of the age - and her hairstyle is imitated throughout the empire - but I can't recollect how Kay describes her eyes.

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The young empress is often described as one of the four beauties of the age - and her hairstyle is imitated throughout the empire - but I can't recollect how Kay describes her eyes.

She's Kitai [Chinese]

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