Werthead Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 He actually did when he wrote and sold the book (according to a talk he gave at this past Readercon); he had something like Gaiman's "The Problem of Susan" in mind. Then the publisher's lawyers made him change those references to something "original."That's weird, as Orbit/DAW seemed to have no problems with Tad Williams setting entire chunks of his Otherland books in Middle-earth, complete with Elrond and Aragorn cameos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Maybe because it was more an homage than a ripoff? :idea: Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Then he should have changed every reference of something real. You can have it set in our world if you like; that's fine. If so, you must have everything set in our world. Or it can be original, which is also fine. A mix of both to make it convenient is lazy. And he did a shite job of making anything original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Then he should have changed every reference of something real. You can have it set in our world if you like; that's fine. If so, you must have everything set in our world.That's silly. The whole point was of the story was the references to Narnia and the idea that it was really real - the fact that the lawyers wanted names changed for safety doesn't mean he should change the whole gist of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I dunno, Stego. You're either being difficult for the sake of getting a rise out of people, or you seem to be misinterpreting the type of book that Grossman was writing. Somehow, given that you're a pretty sharp guy, I expect it's the former. The Magicians is trying to be the Catcher in the Rye of Fantasy, not the second-coming of The Chronicles of Narnia. Whether it succeeds at that is up for debate, certainly.Really the Fillory/Narnia plotline was of small importance to the book until the very end, where, admittedly, the novel loses a lot of its steam. Maybe once the sequel hits, which seems like it will be set more fully in Fillory, you may be able to complain about Grossman's lack of originality. But, maybe Grossman will surprise us by showing why Fillory can stand on its own. We don't know. It seems shortsighted to slam a book based on something it didn't set out to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 *sigh*Don't you folks understand that trying to rewrite Holden Caulfield is the douchiest thing a writer can do? A fucking SEQUEL?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Sure. But that's not what we're debating. We're debating whether Grossman is a talentless hack for ripping off Narnia and then renaming it because his lawyers told him to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 No, Stego sincerely dislikes the book. I thought it was okay. I do think a sequal would miss the point. Quentin is a Narcissicist. His actions at the end of the book confirm that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Sure. But that's not what we're debating. We're debating whether Grossman is a talentless hack for ripping off Narnia and then renaming it because his lawyers told him to.Look, I'm not going to write a paper, ok? I already wasted enough time on this tome of mediocrity.Grossman is absolutely NOT a talentless hack, and I am saying just the opposite. If a man with an IQ of 40 ties his shoes, I'll be the first swinging dick to applaud. If a man capable of writing a novel worth reading writes boring garbage, he should be taken to task for it. Not every book is good, and not every book that attempts to be art succeeds. Did the Magicians make you cry? Laugh? Did it make you horny? Did it make you mourn? Did it make you think new thoughts or consider new possibilities?It fails as art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 An oddity about The Magicians is that the author has the main character's girlfriend be a very shy, withdrawn ultra-smart girl who most guys don't notice until he gets her to open up, whereupon she becomes an ultra-hot sex vixen. We are also told about her impressive bra size, repeatedly. I get the impression he should have taken a few more redrafting passes on those sections, preferably aided by a cold shower to reign in those author wish-fulfilment tendencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watcher Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I dunno, Stego. You're either being difficult for the sake of getting a rise out of people, or you seem to be misinterpreting the type of book that Grossman was writing. Somehow, given that you're a pretty sharp guy, I expect it's the former. The Magicians is trying to be the Catcher in the Rye of Fantasy, not the second-coming of The Chronicles of Narnia. Whether it succeeds at that is up for debate, certainly.Really the Fillory/Narnia plotline was of small importance to the book until the very end, where, admittedly, the novel loses a lot of its steam. Maybe once the sequel hits, which seems like it will be set more fully in Fillory, you may be able to complain about Grossman's lack of originality. But, maybe Grossman will surprise us by showing why Fillory can stand on its own. We don't know. It seems shortsighted to slam a book based on something it didn't set out to achieve.Trying to redo Catcher in the Rye may not work with today's teen's. New York Magazine had a piece several weeks ago about how the current generation of teens doesn't like the novel or Holden. "Whiney" is a common term used to describe him by today's teenagers. Might this age divide might explain some of the polar opposite reaction this novel is getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Nope. Everyone always thought Holden was whiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Nope. Everyone always thought Holden was whiny.A guy once tried to fight me at a college party because I told him that Holden Caufield was a "whiny bitch." It was hilarious. I do agree with the article that the book hasn't aged as well. It is anecdotal evidence, but I've found people who enjoyed the book read it in their teens while people who weren't as impressed (such as myself) read it in their 20's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Christ, this novel goes to shit the moment they cross over the Fillory. . . :sick: It was quite all right till then. Nothing original, but enjoyable nonetheless. But I'm about 50 pages from the end and it sucks big time at the moment.Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yes, the last slog was very, very painful. Only a sadist could enjoy it. You cre nothing about any of the characters. I just wanted folks to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well, that's encouraging. . . :ack: Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Simply because one does not write in simple declarative sentences does not make on literary, folks. The Magicians is not worth your time or effort.Got a problem with declarative sentences, huh? When I was growing up, simple sentences were all we had, and maybe on Christmas, a Clause would visit, but it didn't happen every year. Be thankful you ain't livin' that life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 This book went downhill the minute the characters crossed over to Fillory. And then, the further the plot went, the worst it got. . .Probably the most disappointing "big release" of the year. Started off as a relatively good Harry Potter for grown-ups kind of books, the sort of thing readers who don't like to stray from their comfort zone might enjoy. But the last hundred pages or so are crap. :thumbsdown: Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moirne Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I hated this book. Badly written, unoriginal, rip off, annoying characters, stupid ending... need I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Adder Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 looks like I'll give this a miss and stick with Harry Dresden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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