So I think I’m an atheist (or at least a really strong agnostic) now

[Deluge]

I have to say, this is exactly the same for atheists who convert to a religion. I have some friends who announced that they were Christians (in a religous sense, as opposed to the normal default census option sense), and although I try to keep in touch with them they've been almost entirely anathematised by most of my friends.

Personally, I can't much stand atheism. The only things equally annoying are theism and agnosticism. All three options tend, 90% of the time, to be entirely wrong-headed on religious questions.

Huh, that's never been my experience at all, but I suppose it probably does happen.

Crazydog, when I stopped being religious, I just didn't bring anything up. My parents stopped going to church years before I did, but every now and again I'll go with other people. It's never been a big deal, I've been to services at a synagogue a time or two, and I've done some pagan things with a few of my friends, even though I don't share their beliefs, either. Just because you don't believe in the dogma doesn't mean you can't take part in the ceremony.

[S John]

If someone were to ask me, I would say that I was Roman Catholic, but in reality 'agnostic' is probably a more accurate description. I still identify with the Catholic upbrining and all the bells and whistles of the church, but I don't do a whole lot of participating these days. Its been a long time now that I just havent felt nearly as gung-ho about the whole thing as the rest of my family.

Its not really a matter of needing to do some exploration to find another faith (I couldnt imagine identifying as anything other than RC), I just think that the bottom line is that I'm not a very religiously inclined person. I dont know what the nature of the universe is, or what God is, or if any of those stories are true. Yea, yea, thats where faith comes in I suppose. But even having 'faith' falls short of knowing. Nobody knows any of it one way or the other, so if I'm going to cling to a shred of dogma it might as well be the brand that I'm used to.

I guess my point is that I have no problem not knowing shit, and yet going along with the whole thing becuase it makes my family happy and becuase I can never be certain how I'll feel about it a a month, a year, or 20 years from now. I'd feel pretty dumb if I went all radical athiest only to find myself back at mass down the road.

I very, very seriously doubt that I would be disowned by my family or anything like that. Probably my relationship with my family would just continue as normal. But what I do know, is that deep down inside my mother would feel like a failure as a parent. She was raised by her mother that one of her primary duties as a parent was to raise good Catholics. So, its no skin of my back to go to church and sorta go through the motions with allowing the church to be a part of my life in some respects while not buying everything they are selling. I dont mind the sitting through an hour of listening to bad singing and shaking hands with old people when I'm visiting them. If it keeps my mom from worrying about me burning in hell and whether or not that is her fault, then its better just to suck it up and deal with it.

[ddemarco]

to the op, i hope that however you decide to handle the situation with your family works out. My dad is pretty religious, attends mass frequently (he's a catholic) and actually went to the seminary back when he was a teen/early 20's but then decided to get out of it (good thing to, for me anyways). i am an agnostic i suppose, and i do hold a certain disdain for organized religion in many of its forms. I havent really needed to change the way I act with my family, i think they may have inferred my beliefs based on my actions and stuff (stopped attending mass, etc.) but i've never actually told anyone what i really believe.

that being said, i had a girlfriend throughout highschool (she was protestant) who i had a religion conversation with at one point. neither of us were particularily free thinkers at the time (grade 9/10ish?). she told me, after a long conversation about the differences in our religions, that 'one of us is right and one of us is wrong. that means that one us is going to heaven and one of us is going to hell.' she then proceeded to send me a link to a website that called catholicism 'the world's largest cult' and named all of the reasons why catholics were going to hell (under the guise of 'we am telling you the truth because we care about you and we want all catholics to see the light')

I wish i could find the site now, it was terribly coded (i realize now, lol) but more so, it was a really scary site. this was i think the start of my journey away from 'the church of my fathers.' You can look at that experience as 'wow that girl did such a horrible thing' or you could say, as i do NOW, that she started my journey into actually thinking for myself. (by the way, incase it matters, i broke up with her not long after that, but we are still friends to this day)

anyways, not sure what my point was. just wanted to share that i guess. i hope everything works out with your family, crazydog. i certainly attended a lot of services (even alter-served, did readings etc.) while i did not believe in what i was say. I dont think its hypocritical, as long as the views of the people there are respected i guess

[IheartTesla]

I'm pretty sure I read a post in this thread that was talking about how the universe came into being from nothing and how that violated one of the basic tenets of science. I wanted to respond to it, but cant find the post anymore. Did I dream this strange beast? It was a fairly non-offensive post and I cant believe it would have been moderated.

[potsherds]

I'm pretty sure I read a post in this thread that was talking about how the universe came into being from nothing and how that violated one of the basic tenets of science. I wanted to respond to it, but cant find the post anymore. Did I dream this strange beast? It was a fairly non-offensive post and I cant believe it would have been moderated.

I can believe it. It was starting a debate in a mildy aggressive/antagonistic manner, which was not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to be supportive of Cdog during what's probably an unpleasant shift in views.

Cdog, no matter your reasons for feeling that you've lost your faith now, know that you're allowed to change your mind on that one as much as you want. :) It's a personal choice, so don't let others get you down about it. I hope everything goes well with your family.

Edit: spacing

[The Anti-Targ]

I'm pretty sure I read a post in this thread that was talking about how the universe came into being from nothing and how that violated one of the basic tenets of science. I wanted to respond to it, but cant find the post anymore. Did I dream this strange beast? It was a fairly non-offensive post and I cant believe it would have been moderated.

Yeah that was me. I'd like to enter into discussion on this sort of thing, but it seems in this thread es ist verboten.

I can believe it. It was starting a debate in a mildy aggressive/antagonistic manner, which was not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to be supportive of Cdog during what's probably an unpleasant shift in views.

As opposed to the highly aggressive/antagonistic anti-religious rant of certain other posts. I think the continued presence of other posts, 2 of which are excerpted below (note I'm not saying the King's post has anything aggressive or antagonistic in it, quite reasonable in fact), opens the door and makes it legitimate to respond in the manner I did.

Can whoever modded my post out please PM me and explain their actions? I don't see how I dragged things terribly off topic, nor do I see how I was being particularly offensive.

If we have threads where people are only allowed to be insulting and antagonistic if they first agree with the general tenor of the OP, then such threads should be identified so that people with opposing vieews who wish to put their PoV across and defend their opinions from direct attack can safely avoid them.

*Snip*

Now, you might say, that you are religious but not anti-reason. In response, I'd say that you are lying. The very act of being religious is anti-reason. You are wilfully choosing to believe in something, regardless of the complete lack of evidence. That is fine, I suppose, but that's the truth. To be religious is to be a fundamentalist. There isn't really a middle ground. Having faith is anti-reason. Deal with it.

We may not know how the universe got here, but we know for a fact that it exists, whereas god has zero proof of his existence, the simplest answer is to believe the universe either always was, or was created out of nothing, adding a god just complicates things.

I didn't intend my post to be unsupportive of Cdog in any way. So I apologise to Cdog if that's the way it was taken.

[Roose Bolton]

Atheism FTW. Though I guess it is within human nature to grasp something supernatural as a means to guide them in life.

[Stego]

Stating facts is not being antagonistic, Anti-Targ.

[Gilgamesh]

Deism all the way for me....

I'm not inclined towards theist belief as I have a significant problem with miracles/ intervention. Also, how is one objectively supposed to choose? You can't just go with your culture's standard matrix, and the monotheistic creeds all claim their own miracles.

That said, atheism essentially breaks down into nihilism and post modern theories of knowledge, and on an emotional and rational level, I thus choose Deism. Unfortunately deism is rather amorphous lol.

[Brude]

On a lighter note, I love the concept of rending your clothes, but I bet I am too weak to rend properly.

Now the Rabbi goes around before the funeral service and cuts them with a scissors - actually, I don't know if they always make women do it, but for men you should not wear your most expensive tie to a Jewish funeral, 'cause it's gonna get cut. (Well, they can't make you do it, but Jews are really good at guilt, rivaling Catholics, even.)

A lot of funeral homes have these little pieces of cloth you can pin to your clothes and then cut to "symbolically" rend your clothes, but most Rabbis I've known really frown on that.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I can believe it. It was starting a debate in a mildy aggressive/antagonistic manner, which was not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to be supportive of Cdog during what's probably an unpleasant shift in views.

Cdog, no matter your reasons for feeling that you've lost your faith now, know that you're allowed to change your mind on that one as much as you want. :) It's a personal choice, so don't let others get you down about it. I hope everything goes well with your family.

Edit: spacing

I'm not sure why my post was moderated as well. I'm positive the thread-starter wants different opinions from different viewpoints, not the same thing repeated. My post certainly wasn't antagonistic. But anyway.

[Crazydog7]

I'm not sure why my post was moderated as well. I'm positive the thread-starter wants different opinions from different viewpoints, not the same thing repeated. My post certainly wasn't antagonistic. But anyway.

I didn't read that post as antagonistic and can't figure out wh yit was modified I appreciate all the posts (except for the non-squeter about the chicken crossing the road what the fuck was that?) whatever I am trying to get as many different viewpoints as possible and I applaud all of you always whatever the topic is on here for maintaining a respectful debate tone.

I have some Monk and Psyche to watch and then I'll post some more.

[Lord O' Bones]

Your assuming you get to hang with other people in Hell. It's more about internal suffering and torment all by yourself.

So it's like having really bad gas?

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Guys,

Please remember this from the FAQ:

If you think it was deleted, it probably was, and you very probably know why. Don't complain on the board about it, as it doesn't really look good and it will win you no sympathy. Ran generally sends no explanations either privately or publicly on the theory that people are wise enough to know why their posts were deleted. Each moderator, however, is allowed their own policy -- some prefer to give a warning before moving on to removing posts that flout the generally accepted rules of etiquette on the board.

If you really have no reason why your post was deleted, you can e-mail Ran and ask. If he deleted the mail, he'll tell you why, and if some other moderator removed it he'll forward your mail to them so that they can answer. Public questions about deletions will rarely be answered, and are usually unappreciated, as the moderators prefer to keep moderation decisions a private matter.

[/MOD]

[Shryke]

So it's like having really bad gas?

Yeah. Like after you've been drinking.

Basically, Heaven is the night before, Hell is the Hangover.

Except in the afterlife, you only get to choose one.

Also, there's probably strippers at some point in the process. Strippers are Limbo or something.

[Eponine]

@ the OP

It seems like you're breaking your own rules to arrive at your conclusion. You say that religion and the existence of god(s) should be looked at logically, but you reach the conclusion that there is no god because your family are religious bigots. You want to rely on logic but your conclusion is based on emotion. You may want to re-investigate your premise and see if you (a) don't actually believe in God (b) are just pissed off at him/her/them or his/her/their followers.

While I agree that looking at just a few Christians and concluding that Christianity must be false because those few people are assholes is not a sound way to arrive at a conclusion, I'd like to defend the practice of judging Christianity by the lifestyle and actions of Christians as a reasonable way to test the verity of the Bible.

Many passages in the Bible either say straight out or imply that Christianity can be judged by Christians. Now you could turn this around and say that "most" the people in a church or most the Christians you've encountered aren't Real Believers ...

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone who loveth, is born of God and loveth God. He who loveth not, knoweth not God, for God is love. So go ahead and tell the assholes that they actually don't know god. lolz.

But the issue to me isn't about a few asshole, or about a few saints. The issue is in looking at an entire body of Christians, particularly the extremely devout in studying and obeying the Bible- and observing that their prayers don't get answered more than the hopes and "good thoughts" of the non-religious, they don't have more unity than non-religious groups, they don't have fewer divorces. Each of them is supposed to have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, guiding them, comforting them, yet there are huge disagreements about almost every issue, and hundreds of different denominations. Is God and His Word completely ineffectual in producing fruit, or replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, or making a new creation in HIS BODY?

Obviously, I don't think that this is the only reason for which one should make a religious decision- but I think it's an excellent reason to begin doubting.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I hung up and started to really think about this conversation and the conclusion I have reached is that any system that grants you an automatic get out of jail free card because of what you supposedly adhere to one hour of one day out the week is a seriously fucked system. Any system that allows people to pass off their shitty behavior onto something else weather it is the devil, sin, demon possession or one of 100 other things needs to be closely examined because they are trying to sell you something or take your money.

People who do this usually have issues, IMO. The Bible teaches to except one's sinful nature, to recognize you have a problem, and then come to God. Those who say otherwise are lying. It's (usually) the immature people who resort to "the devil made me do it" excuse.

Think on it as the differences between the two saying “Think through something logically†and “just take it on faithâ€

I think one should do both. Think through it logically, and take some stuff on faith. I think that if one looks at the evidence for God, there's enough for one to go in either direction. There's evidence that could support divinity, and evidence devoid of it which one could easily claim shows divinity (just because they say it doesn't make it right, however). So believing in God IS a leap of faith, but not exactly a blind one.

As for the nature of God I’m not exactly sure anymore I think the most plausible explanation is the old “watch without a watchmaker†argument.

I always thought that explanation made sense.

This is really just my long ass posty way of apologizing to all those atheists and non religious I have butted heads with every time a religion thread has come up. Still, I am at a crossroads while I am living in my mother’s home I will continue to attend services am I being a hypocrite or am I just being polite? Am I being more of a hypocrite for staying silent? Has anyone else had the experience of “coming out†as an atheist or agnostic to their more religious family members?

Which demonination are your family? If it's been mentioned already, sorry, I'm tired as hell. I think that instead of just taking their word for it, you should try to discover it yourself. No one can MAKE you believe. It's a personal choice.

----

On the issue of all the denominations bickering each other, as a Christian, I also find it tiresome. They should look at the Bible for what it says. I find that some Christians often take verses out of context to fit their own means (ecspeacially when trying to figure out Revelation).

Oh, and to any Catholics on the thread...I never got the worshipping/praying to Mary or saints...care to explain it to me? (Not trying to be offensive or anything...I'm just a 13 year old boy with a question).

----

Well damn. I'm TIRED. If I read anything wrong in my tiredness...point it out to me later so I can correct it, please.

[Crazydog7]

Christan all of them about an even split between the Catholics, Southern Baptists Presbyterians and Episcopalians. Despite their endless yammering to the contrary there really is no difference between one mainline Christian denomination or another.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Elvis knows I'm as atheist as they come, but I'd like to second this. In a perfect world everybody would see reason and be atheists, but until such time you shouldn't let religion get in the way of your believing in God. I forget who said it, but I think this quote sums it up: "I have no problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand."

When the blinders are lifted from your eyes and you become an atheist, you should do it because logic and reason led you to conclude that there is no God. Not because you don't like some people who also believe in God. That would be like me accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour because Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins come off as jerks.

Logically speaking when a bunch of assholes support something it's typically wrong.

[Shryke]

Logically speaking when a bunch of assholes support something it's typically wrong.

You missed this thread didn't you? http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=38605

Your statement is in no way, shape or form logical.