Israel and Palestine on trial for war crimes

[Artas]

the pita enigma take a deep breath and do what I and the rest of the men of the IDF with the leaders of our beloved country will do, ignore that sh^t

Yeah, stick your head in the sand. :rolleyes:

That however isn't the United Nations. Their leadership mostly just sits on ass and waggles their fingers at the big problems a year after the crisis is over.

I know. Unfortunately, it's the best we've got so far.

[TheKassi]

I know. Unfortunately, it's the best we've got so far.

That is nothing, and nothing should not be respected or differed to. If one wants authority they must lead and protect, not show up a year after the party is over and criticize the chosen methods of all participants.

The United Nations has no authority because it has yet to earn respect, much less the trust. Those things will have to come first before anyone will care what they have to say. That is just the way command works absent tyranny.

[Hereward]

The UN has no authority to act because no country that actually possesses any genuine power is willing to cede it to the UN. Blaming the UN for that is a bit pointless, don't you think?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

It doesn't matter whether Israel has committed warcrimes or not, you think the UN could just leave them out of this like that? Please. Whatever decision they make, their number one priority is to not be seen as biast. They will hand out equal blame to the Palestinians and Israelies no matter what.

[Padraig]

The United Nations has no authority because it has yet to earn respect, much less the trust.

Er. It doesn't have the authority because its member (e.g. your country) doesn't want to give it the authority. :stunned:

It can't create authority out of nothing. Authority requires money. And money comes from? Well...those countries again...

At the same time, this report is a useful document recording the rights and wrongs of what is going on in Israel/Gaza etc.

Nice to know that the IDF and Hamas agree on its accuracy anyhow. :)

[Artas]

The United Nations has no authority because it has yet to earn respect, much less the trust. Those things will have to come first before anyone will care what they have to say. That is just the way command works absent tyranny.

But the UN is us. It's made up of representatives of all our countries. If we want it to work better, it's up to us - that is, to our government representatives - to make it so.

[Scafloc]

Don't despair! Peace is right around the corner!

Between all the differences, violence, obstructions, hate ect there is always one thing on which the Palestines and Israelis agree:

"The other site is to blame"

[Peter Irving]

both sides are evil in my opinion. Hamas for using Human Shields, afiring rockets and during the begining of the 2nd intafada using suicide bombers. While Israel for deliberlatly attacking civilians and setting up that wall.

[TheKassi]

The UN has no authority to act because no country that actually possesses any genuine power is willing to cede it to the UN. Blaming the UN for that is a bit pointless, don't you think?

The UN has no authority because it isn't worthy of any. Now power should cede anything to it.

And I am not 'blaming' the UN for anything, I am just pointing out that it's finger wagging is irrelevant, and that there is no reason to care. Pointless is a pretty good word.

[Artas]

"The other site is to blame"

Now which site would that be?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

The UN has no authority because it isn't worthy of any. Now power should cede anything to it.

To speak with Davos, you seem to have the cart before the horse.

On a general note, I must say I'm a bit surprised. I thought this thread would be a trainwreck by now. What's this board coming to?

[TerraPrime]

On a general note, I must say I'm a bit surprised. I thought this thread would be a trainwreck by now. What's this board coming to?

Oh, don't worry. I'm watching this closely. This, most likely, Will Not End Well ™. The question is how long we got.

My bet is 50 posts after either Meili or Samalander shows up.

[Datepalm]

Oh, don't worry. I'm watching this closely. This, most likely, Will Not End Well â„¢. The question is how long we got.

My bet is 50 posts after either Meili or Samalander shows up.

Yup, me too. Masochistically looking forwards to it. Theres almost nothing interesting here at all right now, but at the same time I feel weird saying nothing in a mid-east conflict thread.

*lovingly strokes stack of dusty obscure marxist-zionist texts from the 20s*

[Tears of Lys]

:lol:

Swift, innit?

Correct! Give that man a banana.

[Arthmail]

Well, Pita, way to rant.

I think war crimes do not necessarily equate with just the Germans, though thats the most obvious. But perhaps the UN findings also have something to do with using fucking phosperous against civilians.

And saying that you can't use casualty figures is fucking stupid. Look at the difference. I think i read a figure once saying that in all the years of rocket attacks (which i do deplore, and condemn), there have been only 30 or so Israeli deaths. I'll try and hunt that figure down when i have more time.

Yet in the short time that these two sides engaged, anywhere between 1100 and 1400 died. In a matter of days. Overwhelming and unjustified response to a few kidnapped soldiers.

Both sides are clearly responsible for this, but its about FUCKING time that Israel - or any major nation, for that matter - was called out for atrocities. We in the western world spend alot of time condemning poorer nations for the same shit we are doing ourselves.

[Errant Bard]

Can we go on a tangent about Hiroshima?

[duckman]

A great opinion piece from the Jerusalem Post today about how this report should be a wake-up call.

[Datepalm]

A great opinion piece from the Jerusalem Post today about how this report should be a wake-up call.

But if Israelis have a sense of foreboding since Tuesday's release of the Goldstone report, a fear that the world may really be fed up with our treatment of the Palestinians, then I'm glad. Then I'm hopeful. Because fear is the only thing that might get us to finally set free the 4 million people of Gaza and the West Bank. Of our own accord, of our own moral reckoning, we won't do it. Four years of intifada bus bombings hardened us for a generation, maybe longer. When it comes to Arabs, we've been morally numb for too long to change on our own.

All he foreign pressure you can imagine isnt going to go any good, if thats how you see it. The conflict and the occupation are tied up intrinsically with the wider "what kind of Israel are we going to have" questions. All these attempts by the UN or the US or the quartet or whomever are little more than some kind of post modern imperialism. I'm not saying its necessarily factually wrong* - just useless. Either they put their money where there mouth is and bring out the sanctions or peacekeepers - which will only exacerbate the conflict, but might make things at least relatively slightly better for the palestinians in the short term, asuuming its those humans rights that are whats most immediately at stake or please stop wasting someones tax money generating polish aunt reports.

*I dont care enough to read it. Turning the conflict into a PR game is the beloved tactic of extremists and sand burrowers all round.

[Shryke]

The UN CAN'T do anything substantial. The US would veto it so fast it would defy causality.

So the best they can do in the situation is throw a strongly worded letter around and hope it shifts a few opinions.

All these attempts by the UN or the US or the quartet or whomever are little more than some kind of post modern imperialism.

This is funny coming from an Israeli.

[WhiteHaven]

both sides are evil in my opinion. Hamas for using Human Shields, afiring rockets and during the begining of the 2nd intafada using suicide bombers. While Israel for deliberlatly attacking civilians and setting up that wall.

Well - hate breeds hate.

[Yoadm]

Israel has gotten away with more shit than anybody else, simply by pointing out the Holocaust and calling detractors "anti-semites". There is a statute of limitation in place on how long the Holocaust can be used as an excuse for military force.

No it didn't. Israel was far more considerate of civilian casualties in Gaza, than the coalition in Afghanistan, yet you see no war-crimes inquiries regarding the coalitions actions!

Your right. The Palestinian death toll should be WAY higher if we consider the history of the 2 groups.

If you want to consider the total casualty figures, it gets far less favourable for the Palestinians. 30,000 Palestinian civilians/militants/troops were killed in 80 years of conflict, and 20,000 Israeli's. Consider this, though: In 5 years in darfur, 250,000 civilians have been killed, and in Sri-lanka, 20,000 in 3 months.

Israel, which had refused to co-operate with the UN fact-finding team, said the report was "clearly one-sided".

hardly a useful objection when one refuses to participate.

There's a reason Israel objected. The fact finding mission received its mandate from the UNHRC, of which most of its member countries are some of the worst human rights abusers on earth (Lybia, Sudan, etc..), who use the UNHRC to constantly bash Israel on a yearly basis. Every year, between 70%-100% of their resolutions are directed at Israel, and even Kofi-Annan and Ban-Kai moon, at the time, harshly criticised its conduct with regards to Israel. If you want proof, read the following:

The UN Human Rights Council, like its predecessor the UN Human Rights Commission, has been criticised by mainly Western countries for focusing too much on Israel.[18] By April 2007, the Council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel and had been the only country the UN Human Rights Council had specifically condemned.[19][20] By comparison, toward Sudan, a country with severe human rights abuses in Darfur as documented by the Council's work groups, it has only expressed "deep concern."[19]

The council voted on 30 June 2006 to make a review of possible human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session. The Council�€™s special rapporteur on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is its only expert mandate with no year of expiry. The resolution, which was sponsored by Organization of the Islamic Conference, passed by a vote of 29 to 12 with five abstentions. Human Rights Watch urged it to look at international human rights and humanitarian law violations committed by Palestinian armed groups as well. Human Rights Watch called on the council to avoid the selectivity that discredited its predecessor and urged it to hold special sessions on other urgent situations, such as Darfur.[21]

At its Second Special Session in August 2006, the Council announced the establishment of a High-Level Commission of Inquiry charged with probing allegations that Israel systematically targeted and killed Lebanese civilians during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.[22] The resolution was passed by a vote of 27 in favour to 11 against, with 8 abstentions. Before and after the vote several member states and NGOs objected that by targeting the resolution solely at Israel and failing to address Hezbollah attacks on Israeli civilians, the Council risked damaging its credibility. The members of the Commission of Inquiry, as announced on 1 September 2006, are Clemente Baena Soares of Brazil, Mohamed Chande Othman of Tanzania, and Stelios Perrakis of Greece. The Commission noted that its report on the conflict would be incomplete without fully investigating both sides, but that "the Commission is not entitled, even if it had wished, to construe [its charter] as equally authorizing the investigation of the actions by Hezbollah in Israel,"[23] as the Council had explicitly prohibited it from investigating the actions of Hezbollah.

On 29 November 2006, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan criticised the Human Rights Council for "disproportionate focus on violations by Israel" while neglecting other parts of the world such as Darfur, which had what he termed "graver" crises.[24][25] Annan reiterated this position in his formal address on 8 December 2006 (International Human Rights Day), noting the Commission's "disproportionate focus on violations by Israel. Not that Israel should be given a free pass. Absolutely not. But the Council should give the same attention to grave violations committed by other states as well."[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nation..._Rights_Council