Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[lyvyathan]

I certainly wouldn't have found Ned Stark more interesting, or at least more readable, had he killed Cersei's children. I'd probably have given up on the series if the original protagonist was just another, like Tywin, who ordered the murder of helpless children. I don't find child-killers to be interesting or enjoyable to read about, unless they're villains and some braver or more compassionate character becomes the protagonist and punishes them...

Well, (Bad Ned) could have agonized about it and expressed sorrow about his decision in the next book - which might endear him to the same posters who are expressively sympathetic to Theon. A bit like Macbeth. But yeah, in terms of the story development it worked better for Ned to be the good guy who falls because of his honorable actions.

Theon's evolution is somewhat interesting, but he is far from my favorite character in the series. If I lived in his world, I would not forgive him for having a woman and her young sons slaughtered to cover up his ineptitude. Even his tough Ironborn sister disapproved of Theon's supposed killing of Bran and Rickon. I do feel sorry for Theon; he deserved a quick execution rather than prolonged torture; and hope he manages to make something better of his life if he is allowed to continue living it.

Yeah, well, its the timehonored "bad dude becomes good dude" story development or what I call the Darth Vader syndrome. The dude develops another dimension, takes on a new persona literally: Theon becomes Reek the Freak so everyone needs to cry a river over it. In Darth Vader's case - we discover he's Luke's father in ESB (the film which screened in 1980) and the story jumps a new level then.

It makes the story more interesting. But does it make the character likeable? No.

[lyvyathan]

Though I usually agree with your postings, I beg to disagree about Tyrion who is where he is now because of these smart choices. Sure, he managed to get out on top of things more often then not against the odds, but things could have gone sour for him (the lions could have eaten him, how's that not fitting for a Lannister of Casterly Rock. :D) if not for his extreme luck. (others would say plot armour :D) And Tyrion as a character is also ... arguably in his morality.

Well, are you agreeing with me on the Tyrion/Theon comparison - its not a perfect comparison but it bears a strong similarity.

At least with Tyrion despite his unfortunate childhood upbringing (ie his sister routinely abused him from childhood and his father rejected him as his son) - he's able to show some compassion to others - ie his friendship with a bastard son of Ned, going out of his way to deliver the technical drawings of a riding saddle which would enable Bran to ride a horse, and essentially doing the right thing by his cruel father and playing a big role in defending King's Landing as Tywin ordered, etc...

I'm still puzzled about the supposed Theon redemption arc. Just because he was tortured in a horrible way, doesn't mean he is somehow redeemed for his actions before, because this torture is not in answer to Theon's crimes, nor did he do anything so far to atone for his crimes (if you don't count in rescuing Jeyne Poole, where I think Theon's part was pitifully small anyway).

I think many posters are confused over their own feelings - equating feeling sorry for a tortured character with a pardon for their previous evil actions.

Similarly trying to understand the character should not mean that we should attempt to fully empathize or condone his actions, or grant him a level of acceptance. In other words, just because he's a screw-up doesn't mean we should see him in a positive light.

Oh, the torture he goes through is horrible and made me want to throw while reading his parts.

When he gets tortured, I can imagine what the women went through. Now that sickens me. For Theon - well, my sympathies are somewhat restricted in his regard due to this.

I started to dislike him already for the way he treated the Captain's daughter. He was absolutely callous and not in the least considerate. He showed off his inflated sense of self-worth as the "heir to the seastone chair". Every girl must be lucky to suck his cock in his own view.

Its all part of the Theon jigsaw isn't it. GRRM doesn't paint him as a very likeable character - starting from the first book - he comes across as an unpleasant person who gets nastier.

Thanks for reminding me that Theon's the one responsible for the fate of the Winterfell retainers. When he made himself Prince of Winterfell he also took up responsibility for their protection and failed abysmally. Most of them are probably dead and more likely then not considering Ramsay Snow's preferences, tortured/flayed to death.

Hmm... Theon's share of the blame shouldn't fall squarely on his shoulders- afterall there is a small excuse that he could not have predicted that ex-prisoner Reek would come back and turn on him. Nonetheless he should have exercised more care in that whole venture.

But he still shares a big share of the disaster. Its a bit like how we regard drunk drivers who kill through their reckless driving. Are they idiots? Yes. Do I feel sorry for them? No.

I must admit that the scene bothered me too, because he first gained the trust of these men and then betrayed them to be flayed to death. He knew what was going to happen though he tried to shut it out. I try not to hold it against him too much though (there are enough other things to hold against him without him having that particular excuse), since Theon was broken at the time and could not be hold completely responsible for his actions.

But the fact is that Theon was fully aware of the horror of flaying and went through the charade surprisingly independently and very competently for a person who is suppose to be broken.

I'd have given Theon top marks if he had stood on the Moat Cailin battlements and showed Ramsay his backside, yelling, "Hey bastard. Ramsay you bastard son of a whore. You haven't flayed this part yet you bastard. Come and get me, you bastard if you dare."

[Verboten]

Lyvyathan, rather than attempt to deal politely with those who post differing opinions you resort to personal attacks rather than actual facts or interpretations of the events taking place in the book. Why?

[lyvyathan]

Lyvyathan, rather than attempt to deal politely with those who post differing opinions you resort to personal attacks rather than actual facts or interpretations of the events taking place in the book. Why?

I've been pretty civil in my language actually. I don't think you can find any swear words in my post here nor have said that they "suck" a male organ to gain satisfaction unlike Krakenhead who seems preoccupied about such activities.

Mayhaps I've been too harsh when criticizing the arguments of some posters - but that is because I'm incredulous at the extent at which the posters attempt to condone Theon's actions just because of childhood difficulties or because he got tortured by Ramsay. But often that not, they just walk into it.

For people who are sympathetic to a fantasy character who kills and flays two innocent boys to make himself look good, I'm not a bit surprised they don't have a better sense of humor. And instead of calling dissenters peculiar names, roll with the punch, and take it in their stride - like you have.

I remember one exchange we had - "the mirror" post, do you remember that? You could have taken it badly, and replied with anger, but you had the sense to see the humor, and took it well I thought.

[littlespider]

I've been pretty civil in my language actually. I don't think you can find any swear words in my post here nor have said that they "suck" a male organ to gain satisfaction unlike Krakenhead who seems preoccupied about such things.

Mayhaps I've been too harsh when criticizing the arguments of some posters - but that is because I'm incredulous at the extent at which the posters attempt to condone Theon's actions just because of some childhood difficulties or because he got tortured by Ramsay. But often that not, they just walk into it.

You don't have to swear at posters or tell them to suck any organs to launch personal attacks. The fact is you don't seem interested in a discussion at all, just in bludgeoning other posters for expressing different readings of the text. And I don't actually think you're particularly interested in reading or really thinking through others' readings.

As to your second point. The point I stated above, and which you just breezed right over, is that it's possible for some people to read Theon sympathetically without condoning his actions. I stated some of the reasons why I think this is possible -- speculating as to how people with some of Theon's psychologically realistic features are around, and this is what makes him a very "human" character to some readers. You responded by launching at me, suggesting that I was in fact such a person. That was uncalled for. That kind of dialogue undermines your credibility in a discussion -- you do know that, right?

It's possible for people to have incredibly different readings of characters and situations; you come across as in fact rather angry about this. I find that strange, and counterproductive.

[lyvyathan]

As to your second point. The point I stated above, and which you just breezed right over, is that it's possible for some people to read Theon sympathetically without condoning his actions. I stated some of the reasons why I think this is possible -- speculating as to how people with some of Theon's psychologically realistic features are around, and this is what makes him a very "human" character to some readers. You responded by launching at me, suggesting that I was in fact such a person. That was uncalled for. That kind of dialogue undermines your credibility in a discussion -- you do know that, right?

It's possible for people to have incredibly different readings of characters and situations; you come across as in fact rather angry about this. I find that strange, and counterproductive.

Mayhaps. I do concede that sometimes I go too far. But you walked right into that you know. :D And you did call me... what was it? "naive" or something like that. Wait, let me pull out your quote:

But can we relate to a guy who grows up in a completely detached, unstable, and unsure situation? A guy who covers up a completely uncertain sense of himself with arrogance, cockiness, and overconfidence? Maybe a guy who is not entirely secure in his masculinity, who needs to put women down in order to shore himself up? Who does stuff, maybe unwise stuff, in order to try to make a name for himself and impress others? Go ahead and assert that you've never known anyone like this, anyone at all. If you do, you're naive or lying.

Sure maybe we can relate. But its what he does - ie sexual abusing a servant girl repeatedly - that ruins is character to many readers.

People who sympathize with such a character who does awful things should expect plenty of flak.

Just because he's a screw up with delusions of grandeur whose original family are a bunch of robbers and rapists shouldn't cause all the posters to feel immediate sympathy for him - or condone his behavior. I pity the fool to an extent but sympathy, not really.

As to whether you can view Theon sympathetically without considering his (more heinous) actions - that's like saying can you drink water without getting wet y'know?

May I ask at which point your view of Theon changed for the better or did it ever change at all?

[Evamitchelle]

Mayhaps. I do concede that sometimes I go too far. But you walked right into that you know. :D And you did call me... what was it? "naive" or something like that.

Just because he's a screw up with delusions of grandeur shouldn't cause all the posters to feel immediate sympathy for him. I pity the fool to an extent but sympathy, not really.

That's exactly what they're talking about. You refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of other explanations. How's that the basis for a rational debate ?

[lyvyathan]

That's exactly what they're talking about. You refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of other explanations. How's that the basis for a rational debate ?

Well, that's what I think he is. If you disagree go ahead but don't expect me to agree with your stance.

[Evamitchelle]

Well, that's what I think he is. If you disagree go ahead but don't expect me to agree with your stance.

The problem isn't that you have your own opinion but that you consider everyone else's not as valid as your own.

[littlespider]

Just because he's a screw up with delusions of grandeur shouldn't cause all the posters to feel immediate sympathy for him. I pity the fool to an extent but sympathy, not really.

I think the key word here is "shouldn't." Whether readers should or shouldn't react a certain way often doesn't determine their reaction to a character. And my view is that those delusions of grandeur are definitely there, but they're doing something besides (or in addition to) feeding the egomaniacal fire: that is, they're placeholders for a sense of family and cultural identity that the guy's really never had. Now, that's a kind of sympathetic reading, but sympathy is not synonymous with exculpating a character for heinous acts. It may be that other readers feel that way, but I don't.

As to whether you can view Theon sympathetically without considering his (more heinous) actions - that's like saying can you drink water without getting wet y'know?

I think it depends on what you mean by getting wet. Pause. Snicker at perviness.

Anyway, do you mean that in order to feel sympathy for Theon, one must also consider all of the terrible things he did? In this case, you're spot on. The entire tragic fallout of Theon's capture of Winterfell has to be considered. Of course it was wrong to kill the miller's kids and wife. Of course it was wrong to ... what was it? Fuck Kyra until she was sobbing? Yuck. I would never try to excuse him from those actions. But sympathy, or pity, can be part of reading this character without excusing him from these things. I also think that exclusively focusing on the eventual fallout of his capture of Winterfell puts readers in a position to not consider, or not consider carefully, the fairly shitty situation he was in leading up to the decisions he made.

May I ask at which point your view of Theon changed for the better or did it ever change at all?

Thanks for asking. I hated Theon in the first two books. Hated him. I wanted to kick him in the jimmy many times over. Simultaneously, I really pitied him because I read him as a pretty sad sack. (As a side note, I was also annoyed with Robb for sending Theon to the islands because it just seemed fairly obvious that the guy couldn't be trusted.) I had this vicious kneejerk reaction along the lines of "fucker deserves whatever he gets at the Dreadfort." (And I usually don't react this way; I typically don't get into death-wishing on characters.)

DwD changed this. I wouldn't say that now I lurve him or he's my favorite character. His transformation into Reek was an ongoing development of what seemed an important theme for Theon's story: who and what am I? i.e., am I an Ironborn? Am I a Stark? What's my place in either of those worlds? These identity questions strike me as very common and very human (though they play out very differently in Westeros than they do here). In Dance, of course, all of those questions got completely fucked. He wasn't even Theon anymore, and he was barely human. This was horribly, horribly sad to read about. He's repentant, and he made an effort to make something right by helping Jeyne escape. I want to see more of this side of him. It seems to me that he's growing a conscience. He's gone down into a kind of abyss -- one that he created for himself -- and now he's scrabbling to make his way out. I find this a fascinating process.

Anyway, overall that's where I stand on the Theon matter. Overall, the point I'm trying to make is that sympathy does not entail forgiveness or condonement or anything. Does that make sense?

Now I'm wondering if we're in a semantic rut: what do the terms pity and sympathy mean to you when thinking about these characters?

The fact is that we've seen lots of characters do similarly shitty things in these books: i.e., betraying those who trust them, murdering children, raping women, making dumb decision after dumb decision, generally fucking over innocents, et al. It's remarkable to me why some of them get so much hate and some get so much love!

[lyvyathan]

The problem isn't that you have your own opinion but that you consider everyone else's not as valid as your own.

Because I believe my position on this issue is correct. That's why. :D Now you may feel that is sheer arrogance, but since you sympathize with our subject character, I thought you'd show more understanding - glee - :D

[littlespider]

But Lyvyathan there are a lot of different ways to read a book. If one reading was correct, eventually we wouldn't be having any more conversations about it.