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Satoris T Born

Varys Targaryen?

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I have recently come to think that VArys is a Targaryen. I welcome dispute, and think it's a fun theory, and I apologize if this topic has been beaten to death (since I am new to the forum).

It's interesting to note that Varys is hairless. We have no idea what his true hair color is. Not only that, but his eye color has never been described either. Most every character gets at least a mention of eye color, or at least some prominent features noted. Could it be he has violet eyes? Though purple eyes are not an uncommon trait nor exclusive to Targ's....but could be suspicious when paired with silver hair.

There's a couple plot-related reasons I think he's a Targ. First, his claim of "serving the realm" is pretty ambiguous. He was serving under Robert and Joffrey during their respective reigns, but we know he was loyal to Aerys as well. Politically, that's a dodge of a question for someone who doesn't want to say they proudly serve Baratheon til death.

We know he was having Jorah funnel info about the Targ kids in Essos, but one could argue he was using this as a method to monitor their safety as well. Afterall, BAratheon wasn't interested in killing them (at least not seriously) until there was word of Dany being with child. Varys could have offed them any time he chose.

We know nothing of his background. He's a lord by formality, nothing more. How does someone just up jump to that? Varys was a nobody, supposedly castrated by a warlock....next he's a small council go-to guy?

Also, We definitely know Varys is in league with Illyrio to watch over them. And he was eager to "make haste" on some action with either Dany or Viserys.

I might be missing a few clues here, but finally, his name. It's a Targ name. Danearys, Viserys, Jahaerys, Aerys, and Varys.

Could it be Varys is a cousin that was never really put in the spot light? Could he be a back up for the Targ line to be protected (if not really a eunich) or protected (if he is a eunich, just monitor the heirs) set in place by a paranoid Aerys?

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It's definately possible, but it just doesn't sound probable to me. I just don't see how a Targ's identity could be so perfectly concealed to everyone. Now I know some of you are thinking, "What about Jon?". Well, Varys is a lot older than Jon. Also, Varys was not born during a Westeros civil war. My thought is that any Targ born during a time of peace would be big news, and to conceal that child from the public would only cause suspicion. Of course, there can be a thousand ways to explain away his disappearance, but I can't think of one that sounds believable to me.

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He's hairless, because he's an eunuch.

The claim of "serving the Realm" is amiguous. It is known that he is a Targ supporter and that he has tried to help as much as he can. I'd guess that he was alwyas a Targ loyalist and just did what was needed to survive during Robert's reign.

Can I ask one question? Why does everyone needs to be a hidden Targaryen? The most famous theory is for Jon Snow, but I have seen ones for all the children of Tywin Lannister, for Darkstar, for Ned Dayne, for baby Aegon that has survived the War of the Usurper... now for Varys as well. Makes you wonder what's the point of the whole leitmotif about the dying House of the Targaryens if there is a whole bunch of them crawling around....

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He's hairless, because he's an eunuch.

The claim of "serving the Realm" is amiguous. It is known that he is a Targ supporter and that he has tried to help as much as he can. I'd guess that he was alwyas a Targ loyalist and just did what was needed to survive during Robert's reign.

Can I ask one question? Why does everyone needs to be a hidden Targaryen? The most famous theory is for Jon Snow, but I have seen ones for all the children of Tywin Lannister, for Darkstar, for Ned Dayne, for baby Aegon that has survived the War of the Usurper... now for Varys as well. Makes you wonder what's the point of the whole leitmotif about the dying House of the Targaryens if there is a whole bunch of them crawling around....

When one is a eunich, it is not hair that is cut off. That comment makes no sense.

And yes- I know he is a Targ supporter. It is evidence for my theory. Why wouldn't he just say "I serve King Baratheon" or the like.

As for other hiddn Targ theories...I'm just making this one. Jon, that's another story, but any Lannister kid doesn't really fit. I'm not making the claim of that. If the idea is annoying, why did you jump into a discussion on it? There's lot's of theories out there, and the hidden Targ is very valid, depending on who it is. That's the point of being hidden- some have compelling evidence, others are red herrings. If Jon Snow had silver hair and violet eyes, it wouldnt be that much of a shocker if he is revealed to be a Targ later.

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When one is a eunich, it is not hair that is cut off. That comment makes no sense.

Yes, you are right, I made a silly mistake here. Sorry.

And yes- I know he is a Targ supporter. It is evidence for my theory. Why wouldn't he just say "I serve King Baratheon" or the like.

I don't know. But he is, as a whole, one of the more mysterious characters.

As for other hiddn Targ theories...I'm just making this one. Jon, that's another story, but any Lannister kid doesn't really fit. I'm not making the claim of that. If the idea is annoying, why did you jump into a discussion on it? There's lot's of theories out there, and the hidden Targ is very valid, depending on who it is. That's the point of being hidden- some have compelling evidence, others are red herrings. If Jon Snow had silver hair and violet eyes, it wouldnt be that much of a shocker if he is revealed to be a Targ later.

The idea of hidden Targaryens is a bit annoying to me (I have a history of arguing against R+L=J on many occasions), but I didn't drop to attack you ot your thread. I just thought I'd give my opinion.

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Hey I don't mean to rain on your parade Satoris but I just wanna let you know that this theory has been brought up at least a few times that I remember. Not trying to be a dick, but I would want someone to tell me if my theory wasn't new.

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Yes. I argued for this theory rather exhaustively back in March. Check this link.

I think its a decent theory, definitely not as crackpot as some. Drac-arys means dragonfire, and Varys DOES have a very Targ sounding name. His manhood was sacrificed for magic and there's power in a king's blood. Littlefinger claims to have some information over him, which Targaryen blood could neatly fit into this. He seems to be secretly supporting Dany. It answers why Aerys trusted him and also falls into a pattern similar to Robin Hobb's Assassins books, which GRRM is a self-professed fan of.

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I doubt that Varys is a (legitimate) Targaryen by birth, although it is theoretically possible; we don't know what happened to Daeron's daughter or Aerion's son. And we already know that Varys was an orphan; Maekar or Egg would have taken care of a Targaryen infant.

But he could have Targaryen blood. That could be an explanation why

- he was called from Pentos to King's Landing by Aerys II. (as eunuch with Targaryen blood Varys would never be a threat to Aerys and his heirs).

- Aerys II trusted him, and gave him access to Targaryen knowledge about Maegor's secret passageways in the Red Keep (I doubt that Varys has found all the small ways for his 'birds' on his own).

- he remained loyal to House Targaryen after Robert took the throne (to survive and gain power everything a man of his knowledge/cunning needed to do was pledge loyalty to one of the new powers).

Another reason might be that he, as someone with Targaryen blood, read and believed in the same prophecy Rhaegar and Aemon did. Thus he needed to bring the dynasty who was going to give birth to the awaited saviour back into power

- the warlock who cut him chose him instead of another cheaper orphan child; we knew from Melisandre that King's blood (i.e. Targaryen blood) has strong magical qualities, and the spell the warlock wrought seemed to have actually worked.

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Yes, you are right, I made a silly mistake here. Sorry.

I don't know. But he is, as a whole, one of the more mysterious characters.

The idea of hidden Targaryens is a bit annoying to me (I have a history of arguing against R+L=J on many occasions), but I didn't drop to attack you ot your thread. I just thought I'd give my opinion.

No problem. I get a little tired of the Jon discussions myself, but I'm on the other side of the perspective in that I DO think he's Targ. As for the Lannisters...I'm with you. Those are ridiculous. Dayne, maybe....but not nearly enough for theory. He gets all of two pages of the 5000.

So, please feel free to dispute more- I wasn;t trying to sound confrontational myself. I just get excited and sometimes my typed words don't convey the tone accurately.

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If Varys and Ilyrio were true Targ loyalists, then they wouldn't hide any secrets from Dany.

They have some yet undisclosed agenda that is generally pro Targ.

If I had to take a shot at it - they see the Targs as fulfilling some prophecy that will be beneficial to the realms of men and their own pocketbooks. But they don't trust the sanity of the Targs themselves, and see themselves as the wise keepers of knowledge that would be destructive in the hands of lesser mortals.

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Can I ask one question? Why does everyone needs to be a hidden Targaryen? The most famous theory is for Jon Snow, but I have seen ones for all the children of Tywin Lannister, for Darkstar, for Ned Dayne, for baby Aegon that has survived the War of the Usurper... now for Varys as well. Makes you wonder what's the point of the whole leitmotif about the dying House of the Targaryens if there is a whole bunch of them crawling around....

One thing I've already figured out about crackpot theories is that everyone who is not a Robert's bastard is, in fact, a missing Targaryen.

About Varys, I think he can have some Valyrian blood, but I don't think it is Targaryen blood.

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One thing I've already figured out about crackpot theories is that everyone who is not a Robert's bastard is, in fact, a missing Targaryen.

Actually, most of Robert's bastards are also hidden Targs.

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There's a couple plot-related reasons I think he's a Targ. First, his claim of "serving the realm" is pretty ambiguous. He was serving under Robert and Joffrey during their respective reigns, but we know he was loyal to Aerys as well. Politically, that's a dodge of a question for someone who doesn't want to say they proudly serve Baratheon til death.

I think he means just that... whoever is sitting on the Iron throne he will serve as well as he can... at last if it's in the realms best interests. With Illyrio, maybe there would be something more sinister going on there. If indeed he is serving the realm, and the realm is currently run by Baratheons/Lannisters, then maybe he wasn't working with Illyrio to help Dany and the Targs, but to hinder/slash hiurt them. Fits well with your points baout Jorah too, IMO.

Having said that, I like Varys, and think that he is one of the 'Good Guys' so don't actually beieve he would have chose Joff (or even the later Robert) over Dany.

While, ironically, Daemon Blackfyre was a hidden Baratheon bastard.

Hahaha. :thumbsup:

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No, both Illyrio and Varys are Targaryen loyalists, period. When Robert finally decided to off Dany and Viserys, Varys and Illyrio sent out a warning that came to Jorah just in time. Jorah was Varys' spy, but his role wasn't supposed to be negative. I don't know what their motivations are, but I'm confident that Varys and Illyrio's work is meant to be beneficial for the Targaryens.

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Littlefinger claims to have some information over him, which Targaryen blood could neatly fit into this.

Are you refering to when he talks w/ Cat & Ned and says "I have his balls in my palm"?

I was under the impression that he was referring to his control of the treasury, we all know Varys has his "little birds", but he also uses more common informants and w/out the gold and silver to pay them Littlefinger could "crush his balls".

At least I thoughts that is what he was referring to...

ALSO doesn't Varys Targaryen just have a good ring to it...

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No, both Illyrio and Varys are Targaryen loyalists, period.

Why in the name of Heaven and Hell is Ilyrio a Targaryen loyalist? He is in it because he expects to get something out of it.

When Robert finally decided to off Dany and Viserys, Varys and Illyrio sent out a warning that came to Jorah just in time.

This only shows that Dany's survival served their purpose.

Jorah was Varys' spy, but his role wasn't supposed to be negative.

Then why not inform Viserys or Dany of his role as a double agent? 'Cause he isn't working for either of them, he's working for Varys and Ilyrio. They don't want to serve Dany, they want to manipulate her.

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Varys and Illyrio worked together to manipulate Khal Drogo into invading Westeros to put a Targaryen (Viserys) back on the Iron Throne. There are theories why Varys should do such a thing (being himself a Targaryen is one; another might be that he believes in the AA-prophecy and wants therefore Targaryen blood back on the throne), but at least I have no clue why Illyrio should do such a thing.

The whole Drogo-plot would have thrown Westeros completely into chaos (at least, if Varys had successfully manipulated it into civil war before Drogo started his invasion). The Dothraki would easily have become the fourth people (after the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar) to settle permanently into Westeros, and that alone would have meant a rather long period of war.

The common 'reason' is, that he intends to 'gain' something. But what on earth should that be? It's pretty obvious that Illyrio is making fun about Viserys offering him Casterly Rock or another Great Lordship for his service in AgoT. Illyrio Mopatis is a magister of the Free City of Pentos; he and his colleages are effectively ruling the city, and he is most likely the richest man in Pentos. He has no intention to depart for Westeros and live amongst its anti-slavery barbarians.

If Illyrio truly wanted a Lordship in Westeros, he could have sold Dany and Viserys to Robert; or he could have later sent Tyrion's head to Cersei.

And if Illyrio wanted to gain more influence at court in King's Landing, he could always ask Varys to manipulate them to his advantage. There would be no need for Varys and/or Illyrio to get the Targaryens back into power, if only influence in King's Landing was their goal.

So I intend to believe that both Varys and Illyrio are not motivated by greed, but by something else.

And as Illyrio and Varys were willing to support a someone like Viserys, there can be little doubt that they are not going to continue to support Daenerys. Her chances of winning are much, much better.

And of course the whole Jorah-thing was a way to use him to foil Robert's assassination plots (which were only possible because Varys kept Robert informed about Dany): Drogo needed to be convinced that the enemies of his Khaleesi's father were a threat to her and his son.

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Why in the name of Heaven and Hell is Ilyrio a Targaryen loyalist? He is in it because he expects to get something out of it.

I don't know why. I admitted it my post. I don't know what's the reason for what he does, but I know what he does. I kinda don't think that Illyrio is in it for some benefit, because he already has achieved a huge success in his life. He is one of the important people in Pentos and the Free Cities as a whole and has a great fortune. What material reward he might want from the Targaryens?

This only shows that Dany's survival served their purpose.

Yes, which is my point. I'm not saying that they love and care for her. But their purpose seems to intersect and fit together with Dany's survival and success.

Then why not inform Viserys or Dany of his role as a double agent? 'Cause he isn't working for either of them, he's working for Varys and Ilyrio. They don't want to serve Dany, they want to manipulate her.

Because that would sound suspicious in their eyes, especially Viserys', who was half-paranoid already. I think that, for now, they want Dany to succeed. Why is that, I cannot say.

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