Who poisoned Joffrey?

[Octavian West]

Most sensible post in this thread!

I think a lot of ASOIAF fans have a tendency to make the plot needlessly complicated and convoluted. Yeah, Martin takes some surprising turns every so often in his story, but even when we are dealing with a fairly vast conspiracy such as the Red Wedding or Littlefinger's various plots, the details are clearly laid out and most importantly *plausible.* For instance, it isn't at all hard to follow how the Red Wedding would have been orchestrated once all the pieces are in place. Likewise, it's fairly certain that Dontos, who worked for Littlefinger and gave Sansa the hairnet, was the party who introduced the poison into the banquet hall. It was probably a Tyrell, possibly Olenna but this is certainly not completely clear, who took the poison from Sansa's hairnet and introduced it into Joffrey's cup. It's obvious that Joffrey was the intended target because his death was foreseen by Melisandre.

Suggesting that Joffrey's assassination was a botched attempt at killing Tyrion is not only needless, but also makes no sense based on the facts we have in front of us.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa

Some of you guys are super sensitive when it comes to these post. I did not suggest that Joffrey death came about as botched assassination attemp on Tyrion. All I did was state a fact, which was that Tyrion left his pie uneaten and Joff had a piece right before he drank the wine. Then I stated that it was all speculation on my part and ask others for there thought on the matter. So to say that I'm making the plot needlessly complicated is without merit. If I am making it overly complicated then so is the author. He could just have had Tyrion eat the pie and then it would have been no question who or what killed Joff. But he noted that Tyrion did not eat his pie and then he had Joff state it, and then he had Joff eat it before he drank the wine. IMO, it was the intent of the author to have the reader questioning Joff death. Again, I'm not snatching things out the air trying to make up some big conspiracy, I just ask a question based on facts. Do I think that Joff's death happen because someone tried to kill Tyrion, not really. But I'm not going to rule it out.

And as far as the complications that arise from trying to poison a single slice of pie at a feast...

It's a fictional story, there are no complications if that's what the author wants to happen.

[Edward the Great]

the Tyrells had theirs (Margaery's personal safety, I think).

If that was the Tyrells chief concern they never would have agreed to the marriage. The Tyrells want to maneuver themselves into a position of primacy. What better way to do that than to marry Margaery to Tommen?

[Zweihander]

And as far as the complications that arise from trying to poison a single slice of pie at a feast...

It's a fictional story, there are no complications if that's what the author wants to happen.

Certainly, but the point is that Martin generally offers plausible mechanisms for the events that occur in the story. I don't think he really makes things seem one way only to suddenly pull an "Aha!" on the reader. One of the clearest examples of this I can think of is the issue of who was behind the attempt on Bran's life. While it is a point of speculation for much of the story, Martin never provides a really clear picture of "whodunnit," and while the answer in the end is sort of random I don't think he really tried to "fool" the reader by making it really apparent that, for instance, Cersei had ordered it.

In the case of Joffrey's poisoning, it's not clear who was behind it but there is overwhelming evidence that Sansa's hair net was the vehicle by which the poison was smuggled in, and then of course there is Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger. In other words, there is direct evidence pointing to a culprit, a motive, and a mechanism. Martin would have to be TRYING to put one over on the reader if, after all that, it turns out that it was a different target entirely, which hasn't been his style at all.

[Octavian West]

Certainly, but the point is that Martin generally offers plausible mechanisms for the events that occur in the story. I don't think he really makes things seem one way only to suddenly pull an "Aha!" on the reader. One of the clearest examples of this I can think of is the issue of who was behind the attempt on Bran's life. While it is a point of speculation for much of the story, Martin never provides a really clear picture of "whodunnit," and while the answer in the end is sort of random I don't think he really tried to "fool" the reader by making it really apparent that, for instance, Cersei had ordered it.

In the case of Joffrey's poisoning, it's not clear who was behind it but there is overwhelming evidence that Sansa's hair net was the vehicle by which the poison was smuggled in, and then of course there is Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger. In other words, there is direct evidence pointing to a culprit, a motive, and a mechanism. Martin would have to be TRYING to put one over on the reader if, after all that, it turns out that it was a different target entirely, which hasn't been his style at all.

Again, I cannot make it any clearer that I am not arguing for the pie being poisoned theory. But my mind cannot overlook the fact that Joffrey had the pie before he drank the wine. And to me, that's something to take note of. That slice pie may of meant nothing, or it may have meant everything. But that's what I love about reading this series, it leaves your mind brimming with questions. Maybe I should have gave the subject of this thread a different name. Maybe "Interesting detail, Joff ate the pie first". I just wanted to get other people opinion, that's all. I'm not trying to come up with some vase compiriacy. I meant for this post to be a disscusion, not a debate. But thanks for all the feedback, if anything I learned a thing or two about the Tyrells.

[KyleLitke]

The Queen of Thorns was certainly involved. It's possible in theory that the target was actually Tyrion (although I don't believe so), but Olenna was definitely involved, Littlefinger didn't lie about that. Look at how he tells Sansa. He doesn't say "Olenna Tyrell did it", he specifically asks if someone came over and straightened the hairnet. He wouldn't have known about that unless it was part of the plan; he wasn't at the wedding and I doubt Littlefinger concocted an entire story and motivation off the top of his head on the offchance someone straightened her hairnet.

That said, I tend to agree with the idea that Garlan may have been the actual poisoner. And I assume Margaery knew about it, because if she didn't, that's quite a big risk to take. They couldn't have known whether or not Joffrey would just take the cup back and drink from it with Margaery like he had been doing all night.

[Dukayn]

Again, I cannot make it any clearer that I am not arguing for the pie being poisoned theory. But my mind cannot overlook the fact that Joffrey had the pie before he drank the wine. And to me, that's something to take note of. That slice pie may of meant nothing, or it may have meant everything. But that's what I love about reading this series, it leaves your mind brimming with questions. Maybe I should have gave the subject of this thread a different name. Maybe "Interesting detail, Joff ate the pie first". I just wanted to get other people opinion, that's all. I'm not trying to come up with some vase compiriacy. I meant for this post to be a disscusion, not a debate. But thanks for all the feedback, if anything I learned a thing or two about the Tyrells.

Don't stress too much, the thread will either die down or become another branch of the Pie vs Wine argument and there's no way to control it's direction once enough replies are bandied about that it turns into a full on debate.

[Edward the Great]

Don't stress too much, the thread will either die down or become another branch of the Pie vs Wine argument and there's no way to control it's direction once enough replies are bandied about that it turns into a full on debate.

Maybe it's a two component poison and you have to have a slice of the pie and a bit of the wine for it to work.

[arya_underfoot]

Come on guys, Joff just had a bout of conscience and decided to kill himself for good and all.

It is known.

that's hilarious.... :lol:

i wonder what other characters would do if they sudden bouts of conscience...

[HannibalStark]

Actually, it's more likely the direct culprit was Garlan Tyrell.

the Queen of Thorns took the "missing black amethyst" out of Sansa's hair net (which seems clear as Sansa points out in the next chapter how one is missing...and even discusses the fact that a stone was taken and used to poison Joff....the Queen of Thorns was the only one that could have taken it when she "straightens Sansa's hair"

My guess is that the poison was passed to Garlan who then put it in the cup.

I am not sure how people think the pie was poisoned or meant of the Imp....

[Dragon Doll]

Why has no one mentioned Margaery? If she's involved in the plot, wouldn't she be the safest poisoner for her own livelihood as well as the most innocent-appearing? It should be easy for QoT to pass on the poison to her. Did I miss something?

I fully agree. The more times I read the series, the more obvious it seems.

Consider what we know of Margaery. She's resilient, not easily upset, strong willed, she's intelligent. She was quick to move past both her dead husbands. Her response to Sansa's confession of Joffrey's cruelty was not of fear, but of contemplation.

When she screams as Joffrey dies, its, therefore, out of character. Its the expected reaction of a "young maid", which i still doubt she is. She also doesn't react till he's actually dead.

I have no doubt the Queen of Thorns took the poison from Sansa (who i agree is a perfect scape goat). But what better way to deliver it to Joffery, without harming Margaery? Margaery was already in on it all. She would have been in the perfect position to drop it in the cup at the right time, without endangering herself.

And who would suspect her? The distraught bride (though not for long).

Only Cersei has ill thoughts toward her, but Cersei was bent on blaming Tyrion.

[Rhoynar]

Littlefinger might have wanted Tyrion dead, but the Queen of Thorns (Olenna) probably couldn't care less. She didn't seem surprised that Joffrey died, either, and his death would save her granddaughter from marrying a horrible monster she couldn't control. (Tommen, by contrast, is weak-willed and doesn't have a mean bone in his body.)

I think it was the drink, anyway. In the Middle Ages, people usually ate from a common trencher (or whatever it was called) but each had their own cup.

Olenna wanted his grandson to marry Sansa, to inherit the North, killing Tyrion was needed to do so. Interestingly, she invited Sansa to Highgarden again when she took the stone from Sansa's hair. This is a suspicious invitation taking into account the Tyrells didn't speak to Sansa again after she married Tyrion, and also knowing she couldn't leave her husband.

I think this theory makes a lot of sense, actually I've searched for it in the boards after rereading these chapters. It all makes sense: The wine is a misdirection, the poison was in Tyrion's pie.

PS: furthermore, there's no clear reason why Littlefinger would want Joffrey dead but it seems clear he wants Sansa for himself. He told the Lannisters about the Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Willas to avoid Sansa getting married, but then the Lannisters married her to the Imp. Then he had to kill him, ironically allying with the Tyrells. But after Tyrion was dead, Sansa would disappear as she did in the end, leaving the Tyrells without their prize.

Oh, and how did the poison get into Tyrion's piece of pie? He was sitting next to Garlan... Tyrell.

[Ygrain]

Olenna wanted his grandson to marry Sansa, to inherit the North, killing Tyrion was needed to do so. Interestingly, she invited Sansa to Highgarden again when she took the stone from Sansa's hair. This is a suspicious invitation taking into account the Tyrells didn't speak to Sansa again after she married Tyrion, and also knowing she cannot leave her husband.

I think this theory makes a lot of sense, actually I've searched for it in the boards after rereading these chapters. It all makes sense: The wine is a misdirection, the poison was in Tyrion's pie.

And how do you suggest that poison in the form of a purple crystal got into the piece of pie that was cut off mere moments ago?

Also: what do you think Olenna's priority would be - a prospective match for WIllas, making sure that the beast that Joffrey was never had a chance to harm Margaery in any way?

[TalalOfDorne]

It was the Tyrells. Thats about the only good thing they've done.

[Rhoynar]

And how do you suggest that poison in the form of a purple crystal got into the piece of pie that was cut off mere moments ago?

Also: what do you think Olenna's priority would be - a prospective match for WIllas, making sure that the beast that Joffrey was never had a chance to harm Margaery in any way?

Well, small pieces of crystal would not be very different from salt. They could have put some shatters inside Tyrion's pie and he would have never noticed them.

[Boss Wyman Manderly]

It was Olenna Tyrell she grabs Sansa hair piece and says "How sorry she was to hear about Robb and Catlyn" as she's retrieving the poison.

[Light a wight tonight]

Well, small pieces of crystal would not be very different from salt. They could have put some shatters inside Tyrion's pie and he would have never noticed them.

First, the preview of this, Maester Cressen trying to kill Melisandre, shows that the "classic" use of the Strangler is in wine. Second, the Tyrells have no reason to off Tyrion, but a good reason to do Joff. Littlefinger's trying for a "twofer", eliminating a witness to his plotting (Joff) and incriminating someone who's been working to unravel his various schemes (Tyrion).

[Nami]

What

didn't Littlefinger say to Sansa that it was Queen of Thorns?

[Jon of the Dead]

I think it was the Tyrells, but I think there could be a bit more to it. Not a more complicated scheme or anything like that, but maybe Littlefinger planted a couple more seeds when he was with the Tyrells, maybe him and Olenna made other arrangements that we're yet to see.

[Martini Sigil]

The timing of Littlefinger's rescue of Sansa is a tad too convenient to just be a coincidence. And I Also believe that QoT /hairnet was the delivery system for the poison (regardless of which Tyrell actually did the deed)

But I think that what makes this all a little counter-intuitive, is that there was nothing to connect LF and QoT (that I can remember) before the wedding. They are not --until those events-- people we would have thought to equate with one another.

[cadleqe]

Did we ever get any conformation that Margaery was ever pregnant? I know she was using moon tea, but was this going on during Joffreys reign?