Who poisoned Joffrey?

[A Man Has Said]

I think it's worth mentioning that Tyrion was actually not that good a suspect for the poisoning. He had no idea that Joffrey would appoint him as cupbearer, he was LEAVING the party when Joff forced him into that position to humiliate him. (Tyrion had been doused with wine and was going to change his clothes, IIRC) Otherwise he would have had no access to Joffrey at all, considering he was seated a good distance away.The only reason he was suspected was because Cersei hated him. In fact when you think of it she hated him so much that she would let Joffrey's real killer go free just to pin the crime on her Imp brother.

[mrunderhill]

I read over the Purple Wedding again a few days ago, and there were a few things that jumped out at me.

1: I'm convinced the wine was probably poisoned. That's by far more likely (and simpler) than poisoning the pie, and the odds are that Olenna did it herself, and that Marg was clearly in on it. Her passing the poison to Garlan strikes me as unnecessary (they had no idea Joffrey would be bringing the goblet down to upend over Tyrion) and "poisoner" fits her character much more than his. (Cue the "it's too obvious!" speculation.)

2: On the other hand, Martin does dwell on the pie for just a little longer than necessary. It's well-established, but not poured over the reader's head the way the wine was. So I found myself wondering about that as well.

3: The Tyrells have far more motive to murder Joffrey than Tyrion. Yes, Tyrion's death would free up Sansa to be wed to Willas, and the Lannisters would be hard-pressed to object at that point. But Olenna and Marg questioned Sansa about Joffrey for a reason, and they clearly had overwhelming motive to want him dead before he could abuse Marg.

4: Littlefinger took elaborate steps to ensure that Tyrion would be blamed. He hired Penny and Groat, counting on the jousting dwarfs starting an altercation between Tyrion and Joffrey. It gives Tyrion an obvious and immediate motive in everyone's eyes. If the plan was for Tyrion to be poisoned, this seems like an absurd waste of time: no one would believe Joffrey would poison his uncle; he's never been that subtle.

5: I think both the wine and the pie were poisoned, and the Tyrells didn't tell Littlefinger they planned to kill Tyrion. Joffrey dropped dead of the strangler (in the pie?) before whatever other poison used could hurt him. I'm ambivalent on whether Garlan was out of the loop or deliberately buttering Tyrion up...though from his actions at the Tyrion/Sansa wedding this sort of kindness seems very in keeping with his character.

The Tyrells and Littlefinger were not a cozy little conspiracy that shared everything: LF didn't know about the Sansa/Willas plan until Sansa told Dontos. My personal opinion after my latest reread is that there were dueling plots at the Purple Wedding, and Joffrey had the singularly bad luck (or Tyrion the good luck) that he stumbled into both poisons at once.

I am not sure if they wanted to kill Tyrion, but they either wanted him dead or to frame him. Just before Olenna makes a strange comment about taking Sansa to High Garden.

"I am pleased to say I shall be leaving for Highgarden the day after next. I have had quite enough of this smelly city, thank you. Perhaps you would like to accompany me for a little visit, whilst the men are off having their war? I shall miss my Margaery so dreadfully, and all her lovely ladies. Your company would be such sweet solace."

As for the poisoner I assume it was Olenna, but it could be Garlan or even Margaery. Margaery was certainly in it and probably Garlan too. Only Loras and Mace were left out.

He might have stood up in order to help Tyrion get up, and lean over Leonette to warn him just as he did before - or at least, that's my reading of "lean over" if Leonette is beside Tyrion.

I must admit, though, that I do not want Garlan to be the poisoner - he seems a very decent guy, both here aknowledging Tyrion's role in saving KL from Stannis (and being the only to do so) as well as trying to comfort Sansa at her wedding to Tyrion. If he is the poisoner, it's all just ugly pretense - not impossible, of course, but I feel that getting a straight character now and then is refreshing, with all the scheming around. If this is his true character, then he cannot be the poisoner, because QOT would never indulge him in the scheme. On the other hand, the Tyrell ladies seem to be a tightly knit bunch, so perhaps the involvement of Leonette, about whose character we do not know much, isn't so far-fetched.

Garlan and Tyrion are in a similar position concerning the Battle of the Blackwater. Garlan was armoured as Renly and would have had many songs sung about leading the van and killing so many brave knights, however, his part in the battle will never be remembered. It's ironic, because he is probably speaking about himself.

[Nyrhex]

Garlan and Tyrion are in a similar position concerning the Battle of the Blackwater. Garlan was armoured as Renly and would have had many songs sung about leading the van and killing so many brave knights, however, his part in the battle will never be remembered. It's ironic, because he is probably speaking about himself.

“A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”

...so is slaying a monster to protect your baby sister, and making it look like the bastard choked on some pie...

[mrunderhill]

“A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”

...so is slaying a monster to protect your baby sister, and making it look like the bastard choked on some pie...

No that's murder and not valiant at all. He killed a 13 year old boy. His sister did not have to agree to marry Joffrey. The Tyrells could have married her to Tommen for Storm's End or even possibly Jaime if he were ever released. They were power hungry and then killed the king.

[Ygrain]

I think the novels made this pretty clear. Olenna got the poison and Margeary dropped it. Littlefinger of course ensured it as well.

Definitely not Marge herself, hen she was near the chalice, everyone's eyes were on her and Joffrey.

Leonette is a Fossoway. Taena is Myrish, and when Margeary is imprisoned, she flees to Longtable with her husband. Not realy showing to be a part of a clique. Giving a false testimony to placate Cersie, is something an ambitiouse person can do to further improve his standing with the ruling power. I think her game is completly disconected from the Tyrells'.

On the other hand, Taena was involved in the shady business of moon tea for Margaery which may or may not even exist, and until this subplot is resolved, we do not know which side she worked for. Plus, there is this little matter of her fornicating with Cersei, so she really had all the reasons to get away.

I also don't think that Tyrion was picked as a scapegoat by the Tyrells:

Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught

to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”

“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.” She looked to the white knights standing

helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”

“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.

“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take

them both!”

Alerie Hightower is Marg's mother. Notice that up until Cersie turns the finger at Tyrion, nobody suspects it was poisening, or that Tyrion had anything to do with it. Joffrey was getting too drunk on the wedding of the century. His wedding. He ate the pie too fast and choked. That is all that anybody needed to know. Cersie turns Tyrion into a scapegoat. Garlan and Leonette, who sat right next to Tyrion, do not testify. Why not? Because they have no interest in getting him convicted, and anything else will draw attention to thier part. The Tyrell plot was only aimed at getting one victim, with no suspicion. Cersie's paranoia caused the trial.

I think it's worth mentioning that Tyrion was actually not that good a suspect for the poisoning. He had no idea that Joffrey would appoint him as cupbearer, he was LEAVING the party when Joff forced him into that position to humiliate him. (Tyrion had been doused with wine and was going to change his clothes, IIRC) Otherwise he would have had no access to Joffrey at all, considering he was seated a good distance away.The only reason he was suspected was because Cersei hated him. In fact when you think of it she hated him so much that she would let Joffrey's real killer go free just to pin the crime on her Imp brother.

It was well known, I believe, that Cersei hated Tyrion, and present or not, he was the best suspect at hand. He and Joffrey had had issues before, and Joffrey had just publically humiliated him over the jousting dwarves and then again with the wine. The sole purpose of the dwarves, IMHO, was to make sure that the spectacle would happen; with Tyrion's sharp tongue, some igniting response was a safe bet. All it took then was to get Joffrey's wine near Tyrion, and Marge, whispering something with Joffrey the whole time, was in a perfect position to do so via some casual remark how the chalice is big enough to drown a dwarf or something like that. Tyrion had to be framed because someone had to - the poisoning of a king on his own wedding would trigger a very thorough investigation and it would be soon discovered that there was no pie stuck in Joffrey's throat. What was needed was a culprit who had both the chance and the motive and about whom people would readily believe any atrocity, and that's Tyrion.

[Colonel Green]

I think that the reveal about Lysa's and Littlefinger's involvement in Jon Arryn's death was quite out of left field, GRRM definitely pulling an "AHA!" on the readers. Up until that point in ASoS, ALL indications pointed to it being a Lannister plot to conceal the true parentage of Cersei's children. So he does that. I can't think of a single line anyone has referred to that even hints that it was Lysa who poisoned her husband.

In retrospect, Lysa's extremely erratic behaviour at the Eyrie during Tyrion's trial (which even Catelyn at the time finds suspicious) indicates what was really going on, but it's not something anybody would have guessed at the time.

I don't think there's really overwhelming evidence that the poison was concealed in Sansa's hairnet though. The evidence does overwhelmingly show that Littlefinger wanted her to think that it was, to make her believe that she was (unknowingly, to be sure) involved in the assassination of the king. Sansa's feelings of guilt over this supposed complicity were designed to make her more compliant to Littlefinger, more eager to hide from the authorities, more willing to take on a false identity, etc. Otherwise she might have decided that the best course of action was to stay in KL and clear her name.

Quoth the Ghost of High Heart: "I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

For Littlefinger to have made all this up, he would have had to know that Olenna had adjusted Sansa's hairnet, but there's no feasible means for him to know that. Dontos doesn't tell him, and Littlefinger wasn't at the feast. Moreover, there's really no reason to implicate him. Sansa's desperate to escape; the idea that she would decide to "stay and clear her name" is ridiculous; she knows how much justice she could expect from the Lannisters. Moreover, once she's on the boat, she can't go back anyway.

5: I think both the wine and the pie were poisoned, and the Tyrells didn't tell Littlefinger they planned to kill Tyrion.

That doesn't make any sense. They were framing Tyrion for murder; he's going to die anyway, and if he himself was poisoned it would undermine the frame job, since it's unlikely Tyrion would poison himself.

[Lazy Lion]

That doesn't make any sense. They were framing Tyrion for murder; he's going to die anyway, and if he himself was poisoned it would undermine the frame job, since it's unlikely Tyrion would poison himself.

Littlefinger was framing Tyrion for murder.

I'm not convinced he shared that detail with the Tyrells. As I pointed out, that wasn't a very close-knit conspiracy...

[Colonel Green]

Littlefinger was framing Tyrion for murder.

I'm not convinced he shared that detail with the Tyrells. As I pointed out, that wasn't a very close-knit conspiracy...

Unless the Tyrells were complete idiots, they would insist on working out who the fall-guy for the assassination would be, particularly since they're the ones who are actually doing the poisoning and thus shoulder the most immediate risk. Tyrion being framed for murder is not an insignificant detail (unlike, say, Sansa's escape, which I suspect they did not know about).

[Lazy Lion]

Unless the Tyrells were complete idiots, they would insist on working out who the fall-guy for the assassination would be, particularly since they're the ones who are actually doing the poisoning and thus shoulder the most immediate risk.

*Cough* Red Viper! *Cough*

But moreover, are there 10 people in Westeros who don't want to see Joffrey dead? It was a wedding with 1,000 guests; there were more suspects than they would know what to do with.

Tyrion being framed for murder is not an insignificant detail (unlike, say, Sansa's escape, which I suspect they did not know about).

I completely agree that LF didn't tell them about Sansa's escape...just like they didn't tell him about marrying her off to Willas.

And since they didn't know Sansa was going to disappear, that arguably increases their motive for poisoning Tyrion...assuming that's what happened. I'm far from convinced, just throwing out the idea for consideration.

[Colonel Green]

*Cough* Red Viper! *Cough*

But moreover, are there 10 people in Westeros who don't want to see Joffrey dead? It was a wedding with 1,000 guests; there were more suspects than they would know what to do with.

There was nothing in particular pointing to the Red Viper. He wasn't even near the king when the poisoning happened. Moreover, framing the Red Viper would have major political consequences -- framing Tyrion allows the realm to proceed ahead mostly smoothly (although the Viper volunteering himself for the trial by combat was unexpected).

Turning the search for the assassin into a massive investigation of dozens of possible suspects would be the absolute last thing the Tyrells would want. That would inevitably include people speculating about the Tyrells themselves wanting the psycho Joffrey out of the picture (Cersei herself wouldn't think that, of course, because Joffrey can do no wrong in her eyes, but Tywin, et al. would). The frame job needs to be open-and-shut.

The whole debate around the poisoning strikes me as a case of people looking for unnecessary complications where none exist. One should always question Littlefinger, but his outline of events make sense (both with what happened before and what happened afterward) and isn't contradicted by anything else.

[Lazy Lion]

There was nothing in particular pointing to the Red Viper. He wasn't even near the king when the poisoning happened. Moreover, framing the Red Viper would have major political consequences -- framing Tyrion allows the realm to proceed ahead mostly smoothly (although the Viper volunteering himself for the trial by combat was unexpected).

I'm almost certain Oberyn Martell seemed to believe that he would've been suspect #1 if it weren't for Tyrion, what with his being a well-known poisoner and loathed by the Tyrells and everything...

[The Fourth Dragon Head]

With Myrcella in Dorne, the Lannisters would have been mad to frame the Red Viper. The Tyrells though... might have seen benefit in causing a rift between Lannister and Martell. Just a thought.

[The Fourth Dragon Head]

One point that might have been brought up already: a bit of the execution of the wedding seems like luck. Littlefinger certainly could have implicated Tyrion by bringing in the dwarves. He might have whispered in Joff's ear that he should make Tyrion his cup-bearer, but that doesn't seem quite as clean. However, I don't see how Littlefinger could have manipulated Joffrey into leaving his place and dying while tormenting Tyrion. That was certainly one strike against Tyrion, and something LF couldn't have planned.

[Castellan]

I think it was the Tyrell women and Littlefinger only who planned and carried out the poisoning. (Probably only Olenna and Margaery, not Margaery's mother).

But Littlefinger is a sneaky bastard so its hard to know exactly how it was done.

eg the hairnet is a very complicated way to get poison to Lady Olenna at the wedding when she could have just carried it in in a pocket etc. Littlefinger could just have handed it to her before he left court. Although possibly he didn't trust her not to expose his plans or back out or have armed men there to seize him with evidence of his plot, I suppose.... plenty of room for a surprise twist or two but I don't think the purpose was to poison Tyrion.

[Twookus Stark]

I don't think any of the Tyrell men knew of the plot. poison is a woman's weapon and Garlan is to honorable to resort to it, i think. Olenna got the poison from Sansa's hairnet and Margaery put it in the cup, I think this is hinted at by Mace's outrage that Marge was drinking from the same cup

[Tini]

That doesn't make any sense. They were framing Tyrion for murder; he's going to die anyway, and if he himself was poisoned it would undermine the frame job, since it's unlikely Tyrion would poison himself.

They were not framing Tyrion. They were framing Sansa, Sansa and her hairnet. There was no other reason to involve Sansa at all in their plot. Sansa had reason to kill both Joffrey and Tyrion. But Tyrion got blamed by Cersei, and Sansa's hairnet never got caught. Sansa was quite useless for the Tyrells because Tywin would never let her marry Willas. And she was dangerous, as Olenna and Margaery had questioned her about Joffrey's character. Even if Sansa didn't add things up after Joffrey died, she might have told someone who would.

[Colonel Green]

With Myrcella in Dorne, the Lannisters would have been mad to frame the Red Viper. The Tyrells though... might have seen benefit in causing a rift between Lannister and Martell. Just a thought.

That's a bit more than a rift. It would mean war, probably. The Tyrells don't like the Martells, that I don't doubt, but I don't think that they would be looking to start a new side-war while they're in the middle of winding down existing ones and consolidating power.

They were not framing Tyrion. They were framing Sansa, Sansa and her hairnet. There was no other reason to involve Sansa at all in their plot. Sansa had reason to kill both Joffrey and Tyrion. But Tyrion got blamed by Cersei, and Sansa's hairnet never got caught. Sansa was quite useless for the Tyrells because Tywin would never let her marry Willas. And she was dangerous, as Olenna and Margaery had questioned her about Joffrey's character. Even if Sansa didn't add things up after Joffrey died, she might have told someone who would.

No, they weren't. Sansa got the hairnet before the engagement scheme fell through. Had the Tyrells' secret betrothal scheme not been discovered, Sansa would have been sitting nowhere near Tyrion at the feast (indeed, there's a good chance she'd have been sitting with the Tyrells). It's only Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (and, of course, subsequent escape, but I don't think the Tyrells knew about that part) that implicated her in Tyrion's framing, otherwise she'd have been completely removed from suspicion.

I agree that the hairnet is basically unnecessary, but I'm pretty sure that that's a literary flourish on the author's/Littlefinger's part (and possibly a plot point in the future, depending on whether Sansa still has the hairnet, as people theorize). Likewise, the sequence of events leading to the poisoning is a bit beyond what could be easily predicted (that Joffrey would use the dwarf jousters' presence to make fun of Tyrion and cause a scene is a sure bet, but all the stuff with the cups is a bit much), but that's another bit of "fictional mastermind" license at work (the plan also relies on the generally drunk Dontos being able to pull all this off, and a girl with no particular athletic prowess climbing down a cliffside).

[Tini]

I don't think any of the Tyrell men knew of the plot. poison is a woman's weapon and Garlan is to honorable to resort to it, i think. Olenna got the poison from Sansa's hairnet and Margaery put it in the cup, I think this is hinted at by Mace's outrage that Marge was drinking from the same cup

Poison is not exclusively a woman's weapon. Just look at the Faceless Men. Arya isn't the only one who uses poisoned gold coin to kill her target.

[Victor227]

Holy hell. I was just re-reading the scene. It was -Tyrion's- pie that Joffrey jammed his fist into to eat from. Right before he started choking. Olenna was talking with Sansa about taking her to Highgarden. Do you think that the Tyrells were pulling a double-cross on Littlefinger? Using Sansa to deliver the poison, but putting it in Tyrion's pie instead so they could snatch her widowed self to Highgarden?

[Tini]

No, they weren't. Sansa got the hairnet before the engagement scheme fell through. Had the Tyrells' secret betrothal scheme not been discovered, Sansa would have been sitting nowhere near Tyrion at the feast (indeed, there's a good chance she'd have been sitting with the Tyrells). It's only Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (and, of course, subsequent escape, but I don't think the Tyrells knew about that part) that implicated her in Tyrion's framing, otherwise she'd have been completely removed from suspicion.

I agree that the hairnet is basically unnecessary, but I'm pretty sure that that's a literary flourish on the author's/Littlefinger's part (and possibly a plot point in the future, depending on whether Sansa still has the hairnet, as people theorize). Likewise, the sequence of events leading to the poisoning is a bit beyond what could be easily predicted (that Joffrey would use the dwarf jousters' presence to make fun of Tyrion and cause a scene is a sure bet, but all the stuff with the cups is a bit much), but that's another bit of "fictional mastermind" license at work (the plan also relies on the generally drunk Dontos being able to pull all this off, and a girl with no particular athletic prowess climbing down a cliffside).

Sansa would only have been completely removed from suspicion until someone mentioned Sansa's hairnet - a hairnet that was missing one stone but might still have been carrying more poison. The hairnet would've been tangible proof. And a good method to make Sansa keep her mouth shut about Tyrell affairs.

The engagement fell through before they poisoned Joffrey, and Sansa lost her value for the Tyrells when that happened. It is possible that they changed their plans then, adjusting to the new developments.

(Mind you, I think the Tyrells only poisoned the wine. If Tyrion's pie was poisoned, too, my money is on Tywin. A lesson for that brat Joffrey while rearranging the succession to Casterly Rock.)