Who poisoned Joffrey?

[chrisdaw]

I think it's worth mentioning that Tyrion was actually not that good a suspect for the poisoning. He had no idea that Joffrey would appoint him as cupbearer, he was LEAVING the party when Joff forced him into that position to humiliate him. (Tyrion had been doused with wine and was going to change his clothes, IIRC) Otherwise he would have had no access to Joffrey at all, considering he was seated a good distance away.The only reason he was suspected was because Cersei hated him. In fact when you think of it she hated him so much that she would let Joffrey's real killer go free just to pin the crime on her Imp brother.

You're assuming premeditation rather than an act of passion. Cersei completely believes Tyrion poisoned Joff.

[Colonel Green]

It is possible that they changed their plans then, adjusting to the new developments.

She had already got the hairnet, though. What possibly could have changed in the plans afterward? They had already arranged for a fall-guy: Tyrion. Hence, Littlefinger going to those lengths to bring the dwarves, etc. (which he had suggested to Joffrey before he left for the Vale)

Equally at question: what would be the purpose of any of these alleged twists?

[Ygrain]

One point that might have been brought up already: a bit of the execution of the wedding seems like luck. Littlefinger certainly could have implicated Tyrion by bringing in the dwarves. He might have whispered in Joff's ear that he should make Tyrion his cup-bearer, but that doesn't seem quite as clean. However, I don't see how Littlefinger could have manipulated Joffrey into leaving his place and dying while tormenting Tyrion. That was certainly one strike against Tyrion, and something LF couldn't have planned.

I think that this was just a cherry on the cake. The most important thing was to arrange Joff's wine near Tyrion any time during the feast, for everyone to see. Even if he didn't drink of it immediately, the poisoning would be discovered as soon as the maesters examined the body, and with nothing stuck in the airways, strangler would be the next option and Tyrion an immediate suspect even without Cersei's involvement.

[Roadside Rose]

I think the poison was in the pigeon pie.

As Dontos says,

“Softly, my lady, softly. No murder. He choked on his pigeon pie.” Dontos chortled. “Oh, tasty tasty pie. Silver and stones, that’s all it was, silver and stone and magic.”

The pie was intended for Tyrion, not Joffrey.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I think the poison was in the pigeon pie.

As Dontos says,

The pie was intended for Tyrion, not Joffrey.

Dontos would only know about Littlefinger's part of the plan. It makes no sense for LF to poison Tyrion since he needs him as a fall guy.

[Consigliere]

The QoT with a little nudge from LF.

[Roadside Rose]

Dontos would only know about Littlefinger's part of the plan. It makes no sense for LF to poison Tyrion since he needs him as a fall guy.

The Tyrell plan was to kill Tyrion. Their plan got botched up because Joffrey ate the pie meant for Tyrion. LF knew Olenna's plan but whether he played a role to botch it is questionable. In any case, what LF wanted was to smuggle Sansa out of KL, and that he did.

If Tyrion died, the fall guy would be Sansa. Joffrey was never meant to die that day.

[Roadside Rose]

Joffrey realizes the pie is poisoned.

“It’s, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie.” Joff took another drink.

Joffrey realizes that the poison was intended for Tyrion, and so points to Tyrion.

Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand… reaching for his uncle, or pointing… Is he begging my forgiveness, or does he think I can save him?

[Ygrain]

The Tyrell plan was to kill Tyrion. Their plan got botched up because Joffrey ate the pie meant for Tyrion. LF knew Olenna's plan but whether he played a role to botch it is questionable. In any case, what LF wanted was to smuggle Sansa out of KL, and that he did.

If Tyrion died, the fall guy would be Sansa. Joffrey was never meant to die that day.

This is nonsense. What would the Tyrells possibly gain from killing Tyrion and letting Sansa be the fall guy? And do you seriously mean that Olenna would let Joffrey deflower Margaery and abuse her the way he did Sansa?

Joffrey realizes the pie is poisoned.

Completely unsupported. He starts to cough after eating the pie which he declared "dry" and in need of washing down, he thinks it got stuck in his throat. That's what food can perfectly do without being poisoned.

Joffrey realizes that the poison was intended for Tyrion, and so points to Tyrion.

Or rather, realizes that he has been poisoned and blames Tyrion... or, perhaps, he really thinks that Tyrion with his clever wit might save him, as, despite all their differences, Tyrion is still looking at him with compassion at that moment.

[Colonel Green]

Joffrey was never meant to die that day.

When Sansa gets to the boat, Littlefinger knows Joffrey is dead without anybody telling him, so clearly he was the actual target.

[Roadside Rose]

When Sansa gets to the boat, Littlefinger knows Joffrey is dead without anybody telling him, so clearly he was the actual target.

One of the Kettlebacks could have told Littlefinger.

Olenna would not have spent so much money on a wedding, if it was to kill Joffrey.

Olenna did not intend to kill Joffrey. The original plan was to have Tyrion killed.

If LF made a botch out of her original plans is something we don't know.

[Colonel Green]

One of the Kettlebacks could have told Littlefinger.

How? He was on a boat some distance off the coast, and Sansa and Dontos left fairly quickly, via a secret escape route (when the whole area was being locked down). And there's no reason why they would make such a huge risk and rush to tell him something he would learn from Sansa and Dontos anyway.

Olenna would not have spent so much money on a wedding, if it was to kill Joffrey.

Er, no, that's called a cover. Money isn't a big concern to the Tyrells. Moreover, not all the Tyrells were in on the wedding plan itself, so there'd be no grounds to stop Mace from splurging on his daughter's big day.

Olenna did not intend to kill Joffrey. The original plan was to have Tyrion killed.

Why? And why there? They have no particular reason to kill Tyrion (and certainly not to frame Sansa for that, since the only plausible motive people have offered for them wanting Tyrion dead is to free up Sansa), and killing Tyrion still leaves the Joffrey problem (which we earlier saw them scoping out) without a solution.

Moreover, Penny's statements in ADWD independently corroborate the story that it was Littlefinger who brought the dwarf jousters to the wedding, whose presence serves absolutely no purpose but to instigate a fight between Joffrey and Tyrion. Joffrey was the target, and Tyrion the fall guy.

[Roadside Rose]

Why? And why there? They have no particular reason to kill Tyrion (and certainly not to frame Sansa for that, since the only plausible motive people have offered for them wanting Tyrion dead is to free up Sansa), and killing Tyrion still leaves the Joffrey problem (which we earlier saw them scoping out) without a solution.

Moreover, Penny's statements in ADWD independently corroborate the story that it was Littlefinger who brought the dwarf jousters to the wedding, whose presence serves absolutely no purpose but to instigate a fight between Joffrey and Tyrion. Joffrey was the target, and Tyrion the fall guy.

Sansa was to marry Willas. Tywin botched that plan by arranging Tyrion's & Sansa'a wedding. By killing Tyrion, they could get Sansa to wed Willas.

Why would the Tyrells spend all the money on Joffrey's wedding...if it was to kill him? It makes no sense that it was a cover.

And even if they wanted to get rid of Joffrey, the Tyrells would not kill him on the day of his marriage. That would just weaken Margaery's claim as Queen.

[Colonel Green]

Sansa was to marry Willas. Tywin botched that plan by arranging Tyrion's & Sansa'a wedding. By killing Tyrion, they could get Sansa to wed Willas.

Your initial post said that they were conspiring to frame Sansa for killing Tyrion, so obviously marrying Willas wouldn't be in the cards. And if not her, then who exactly would be taking the fall?

Why would the Tyrells spend all the money on Joffrey's wedding...if it was to kill him? It makes no sense that it was a cover.

Again, the whole point of a cover is to do everything you would normally do so that nobody would notice anything was amiss. And, again, Mace Tyrell wasn't in on it, so there'd be no reason for him not to spend tons of money.

And even if they wanted to get rid of Joffrey, the Tyrells would not kill him on the day of his marriage. That would just weaken Margaery's claim as Queen.

No, that's irrelevant. Margaery has no "claim as queen" whether he dies on his wedding day or two days after; she's dowager regardless. Killing Joffrey before the bedding also keeps Margaery officially a virgin, which is important to her remarriage prospects for reasons I'm still not entirely clear on. They wanted to kill Joffrey and replace him with the pliable Tommen, which they indeed accomplished in very short order.

In brief, Littlefinger's version of events conforms to all the evidence, including the testimony of other characters who are obviously not part of his agenda. There's no countervailing evidence except wild suppositions. Those suppositions also often hinge on Littlefinger, instead of killing Joffrey, going to even more complicated lengths to make it look like he killed Joffrey (or else Joffrey was never supposed to die, and he was somehow notified of this beforehand even though that's clearly not possible based on where he was).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sorry but the idea that Tyrion was the intended target is absolute bunk. The Tyrells and Baelish conspired to kill Joffrey to 1. spare Margaery from having to stay married him, 2. get a much more malleable king in Tommen and 3. get Sansa away from the Lannisters. Tyrion was the fall guy because it would be believable, it would weaken the Lannisters and it would (if he was executed) make Sansa a widow. They don't need to kill Tyrion to free Sansa; framing him for Joffrey's murder and him being executed for it accomplishes the exact same goal.

As for the wedding — it's called covering your ass. If it looks like the Tyrells were invested in the marriage, it makes them look less likely to be suspects. As was pointed out, the scheme looks like it was mainly the work of Olenna and Baelish, with Margaery and Garlan also in on it. Mace was probably completely oblivious and was also the one who'd be writing most of the checks, so to speak.

Some thematic evidence that the wine was poisoned and not the pie: The wine in question was Arbor red. Also the wine Dany's poisoner tried to use to poison her, and the wine Cressen used to try to poison Melisandre. Thematically, Arbor red wine in the story should denote poison, in the same way that Arbor gold is used as a thematic device to denote deception.

As for who actually did the deed, I tend to zero in on Margaery herself. Not only would she be pretty completely above suspicion, her doing it herself is the only surefire way that she isn't poisoned also.

[Roadside Rose]

Holy hell. I was just re-reading the scene. It was -Tyrion's- pie that Joffrey jammed his fist into to eat from. Right before he started choking. Olenna was talking with Sansa about taking her to Highgarden. Do you think that the Tyrells were pulling a double-cross on Littlefinger? Using Sansa to deliver the poison, but putting it in Tyrion's pie instead so they could snatch her widowed self to Highgarden?

I think LF double-crossed the Tyrells. The reason is this cryptic snippet, something Leo Tyrell says at the start of aFFC,

(It's a hint that the Tyrells were double-crossed.)

Leo sat himself at theirs. “Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won’t inform my father of your toast. The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat. What did you lads have?”

[Colonel Green]

I think LF double-crossed the Tyrells. The reason is this cryptic snippet, something Leo Tyrell says at the start of aFFC,

(It's a hint that the Tyrells were double-crossed.)

That's quite a stretch.

Beyond that they probably thought Sansa would be meeting her maker alongside Tyrion (in the show, by comparison, they presumably will have to know that she's escaping, since they know about Littlefinger's interest in her).

[Lost Melnibonean]

Perhaps this has been mentioned already? There's an intersting dialogue on p. 664 between Oberyn an Tyrion about Viserys I killing Baelor to get the throne. It does hint Tywin could have been behind the purple wedding.

[Colonel Green]

Perhaps this has been mentioned already? There's an intersting dialogue on p. 664 between Oberyn an Tyrion about Viserys I killing Baelor to get the throne. It does hint Tywin could have been behind the purple wedding.

No, not really. Tywin being behind it makes not a lick of sense, as it completely screws up all his long-term plans.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

See, there was actually a second hairnet on the head of Lady de Grasse of House Knoll, and...