Who poisoned Joffrey?

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm sorry but the idea that Tyrion was the intended target is absolute bunk. The Tyrells and Baelish conspired to kill Joffrey to 1. spare Margaery from having to stay married him, 2. get a much more malleable king in Tommen and 3. get Sansa away from the Lannisters. Tyrion was the fall guy because it would be believable, it would weaken the Lannisters and it would (if he was executed) make Sansa a widow. They don't need to kill Tyrion to free Sansa; framing him for Joffrey's murder and him being executed for it accomplishes the exact same goal.

I've been wondering if or why the Tyrells would want to implicate Tyrion in the plot. This is at least something, though if Tyrion was executed the Lannisters would still have custody of Sansa, not so?

[Light a wight tonight]

See, there was actually a second hairnet on the head of Lady de Grasse of House Knoll, and...

How many folks will get this?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Actually, when Littlefinger is giving Sansa the infodump, it's one of the rare times where I think he's being mostly honest (with us the audience).

"For Margaery to be a queen the Tyrells need a King, but they do not need Joffrey."

LF had let the Tyrell camp know on the sly (by letting rumors circle among the grunts and servants) what a monster Joffrey really was, and once that noise trickled up to the Tyrells themselves, they interviewed Sansa to corroborate it, which Sansa eventually did after enough prodding (though Margaery seems to have figured that Sansa's initially being scared shitless to tell the truth was corroboration in and of itself).

The Tyrells have the ambition of the Lannisters without their internal dysfunction. That is to say, as far as we can tell the Tyrells truly love each other like a family is supposed to. Margaery may be taking one for the team by marrying for politics, but that doesn't mean they're going to let their darling little girl get beat up and terrorized by an asshole of Joffrey's caliber, ESPECIALLY if there's another option. And there is.

Just as LF predicts in that conversation with Sansa, there is a new Royal Wedding almost immediately.

EDIT:

How many folks will get this?

I give not a mummer's fart about quantity, good Ser. The right people will get it. :D

[Twookus Stark]

the way i see it Olenna, Marge and LF conspired to kill Joffrey. Olenna got the poison from Sansa's hairnet gave it to Marge who put it in the goblet. And LF suggested the dwarf jousters to spark a confrontation between Tyrion and Joff. But why the hairnet? why not just have Marge carry the poison?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

the way i see it Olenna, Marge and LF conspired to kill Joffrey. Olenna got the poison from Sansa's hairnet gave it to Marge who put it in the goblet. And LF suggested the dwarf jousters to spark a confrontation between Tyrion and Joff. But why the hairnet? why not just have Marge carry the poison?

I agree that the hairnet is overly complicated for the basic needs of that assassination plot. However, remember that the hairnet works on multiple levels; it ties Sansa, as its wearer, to further developments in the story through that prophecy. So I agree with the person who said the hairnet is more of a literary device, not so much as something necessary for the face-value plot, where it is admittedly a little convoluted.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

the way i see it Olenna, Marge and LF conspired to kill Joffrey. Olenna got the poison from Sansa's hairnet gave it to Marge who put it in the goblet. And LF suggested the dwarf jousters to spark a confrontation between Tyrion and Joff. But why the hairnet? why not just have Marge carry the poison?

Margaery Absolutely Double Plus 100 Percent Cannot have the hint of a whiff of involvement in any case whatsoever. She is the key to everything House Tyrell is planning. She literally cannot be replaced. The most essential piece, even if the Tyrells ARE ruthless enough to sacrifice each other's lives for the good of the team (I doubt they are).

[Of course, this also applies on the other end, they have to be just as certain she doesn't ingest the poison herself, so she has to know where it is and when it's "live" and when it's not safe to drink or eat, so her having the poison on her eventually makes just as much sense. This is the main reason why I think she's the triggerman who actually directly poisons Joffrey.]

Her bringing the poison means if things go south, she's found with it on her person, and it's her head on the block.

The way it's planned, even if EVERYTHING GOES WRONG, Sansa's the one found with the weapon on her. Obviously for the Tyrells, it's better her than them.

[Colonel Green]

I've been wondering if or why the Tyrells would want to implicate Tyrion in the plot. This is at least something, though if Tyrion was executed the Lannisters would still have custody of Sansa, not so?

I don't think the Tyrells cared one way or another about Tyrion being implicated. They needed a fall-guy for the assassination scheme. Littlefinger absolutely had reason to want Tyrion out of the way (even moreso after complications led to him being married to Sansa), and probably suggested it. The Tyrells would have agreed to it because he made a good fall-guy (widely disliked, known to hate Joffrey, and vice versa, etc.), not because they had animus against Tyrion.

For the Tyrells I would imagine Tyrion's death was just the cost of doing business.

I suppose you could argue that killing Tyrion would also have the advantage of depriving House Lannister of one of its more competent members, thus making the future consolidation of regime power under House Tyrell easier (Tywin and Kevan will only live so long, after all, even under the best circumstances, and their descendants are generally pretty thin gruel, politically speaking).

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I don't think the Tyrells cared one way or another about Tyrion being implicated. They needed a fall-guy for the assassination scheme. Littlefinger absolutely had reason to want Tyrion out of the way (even moreso after complications led to him being married to Sansa), and probably suggested it. The Tyrells would have agreed to it because he made a good fall-guy (widely disliked, known to hate Joffrey, and vice versa, etc.), not because they had animus against Tyrion.

For the Tyrells I would imagine Tyrion's death was just the cost of doing business.

Exactly. It's nothing personal in picking Tyrion as the fall guy. They simply needed to make absolutely sure that the lead suspect wasn't any one of them.

Though, if they truly were interested in having Sansa be Mrs. Willas Tyrell, they would stand to gain from Tyrion being executed for regicide. Heck, I can almost hear Margaery squealing girlishly in Sansa's ear about how they're Widow Sisters Now And We're Going To Have So Much Fun. :)

[Colonel Green]

Though, if they truly were interested in having Sansa be Mrs. Willas Tyrell, they would stand to gain from Tyrion being executed for regicide.

Once Sansa became married to Tyrion I think she was probably doomed to meet the same fate as him (though I suppose, given the political calculations of the judges, Tywin and/or Mace might have decided to let her off, and Oberyn seemed favourable to her). Tyrion was selected as the fall guy before the marriage happened, when Sansa wouldn't have been anywhere near him during the wedding.

This may also help explain why Margaery and co. basically cut off contact with Sansa after the marriage happened, since Margaery (the leader of the pack) would have suspected that Sansa was going to become collateral damage.

[Lost Melnibonean]

No, not really. Tywin being behind it makes not a lick of sense, as it completely screws up all his long-term plans.

Why would tywin prefer Joff to Tommen? How would Tywin's long term plans suffer with Tommen as king. Wouldnt his um hand (sorry) be free longer?

[Lost Melnibonean]

See, there was actually a second hairnet on the head of Lady de Grasse of House Knoll, and...

Could Tywin have been involved in the initial plot?

[Bippy]

I have a few reasons for thinking there was funny business that had nothing to do with the wine:

1) that massive chalice wandered around and even got poured over Tyrion at one point. Not necessarily the most reliable method to poison either J or T.

2) It's not that easy to poison one portion of pie... UNLESS you've got a servant bribed to use the sauceboat with the poison (this is starting to sound like that Danny Kaye skit)

3) Shae asked at the last minute to attend the feast, and (I think) to wait at table. And this was at a time when she was likely already in Cersei's service. It could've been a way to be the person with the sauceboat. Or to DIVERT the sauce. Or to fake evidence.

4) Tyrion poured out the wine. Which, given Tyrion's tendency to do the wrong thing, means there was no poison in it. Call it Imp's Law.

5) Littlefinger says it was the wine and implicates Sansa because she wore that hairnet. Which at this point in the series means, not so much.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I've been wondering if or why the Tyrells would want to implicate Tyrion in the plot. This is at least something, though if Tyrion was executed the Lannisters would still have custody of Sansa, not so?

The Tyrells didn't intend to implicate Tyrion. Mace's immediately suggested he choked on the pigeon pie. LF set up Tyrion with the dwarves.

[Colonel Green]

The Tyrells didn't intend to implicate Tyrion. Mace's immediately suggested he choked on the pigeon pie.

Mace wasn't in on the plot.

Why would tywin prefer Joff to Tommen? How would Tywin's long term plans suffer with Tommen as king. Wouldnt his um hand (sorry) be free longer?

It's not a question of Joffrey and Tommen. The Purple Wedding ruined Tywin's future plans for a Lannistark dynasty in the North, and also created a scenario where Prince Oberyn was able to fight Gregor Clegane, where either result would have seriously roiled the government. The latter was not foreseeable, but the former was part and parcel of the plan. If Tywin wanted Joffrey out of the way, there were much quieter ways to do it that wouldn't gratuitously discard valuable strategic pieces.

[Ygrain]

I have a few reasons for thinking there was funny business that had nothing to do with the wine:

1) that massive chalice wandered around and even got poured over Tyrion at one point. Not necessarily the most reliable method to poison either J or T.

Incorrect. Only Joff and Marge drank from it, it was their wedding gift. Are you implying that some random wedding guests might be so bold as to drink from their king's chalice?

2) It's not that easy to poison one portion of pie... UNLESS you've got a servant bribed to use the sauceboat with the poison (this is starting to sound like that Danny Kaye skit)

The sauce was from lemon, which hardly gives it the colouring to cover the strangler.

3) Shae asked at the last minute to attend the feast, and (I think) to wait at table. And this was at a time when she was likely already in Cersei's service. It could've been a way to be the person with the sauceboat. Or to DIVERT the sauce. Or to fake evidence.

And she wasn't allowed to, because the personnel was handpicked by Cersei.

4) Tyrion poured out the wine. Which, given Tyrion's tendency to do the wrong thing, means there was no poison in it. Call it Imp's Law.

Hardly a proof of anything.

5) Littlefinger says it was the wine and implicates Sansa because she wore that hairnet. Which at this point in the series means, not so much.

[Colonel Green]

5) Littlefinger says it was the wine and implicates Sansa because she wore that hairnet. Which at this point in the series means, not so much.

Littlefinger strategically withholds information from Sansa, but what information he does give her has, so far, largely seemed accurate (indeed, he tells her all kinds of stuff she doesn't need to know).

[Bippy]

Incorrect. Only Joff and Marge drank from it, it was their wedding gift. Are you implying that some random wedding guests might be so bold as to drink from their king's chalice?

The sauce was from lemon, which hardly gives it the colouring to cover the strangler.

Joffrey himself poured it over Tyrion, correct? Suppose the "amethyst" had already been in there. What was Olenna going to do, rush over to fiddle with Sansa's hair again?

Do we know that "strangler" does color its substrate, or that Pycelle, that pillar of rectitude, accurately identified Joffrey's poison as "strangler"?

I don't care much who poisoned who, I figure GRRM will tell us sooner or later, but I'm not jumping to take LF's word for anything.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Mace wasn't in on the plot.

It's not a question of Joffrey and Tommen. The Purple Wedding ruined Tywin's future plans for a Lannistark dynasty in the North, and also created a scenario where Prince Oberyn was able to fight Gregor Clegane, where either result would have seriously roiled the government. The latter was not foreseeable, but the former was part and parcel of the plan. If Tywin wanted Joffrey out of the way, there were much quieter ways to do it that wouldn't gratuitously discard valuable strategic pieces.

I meant to say Mace's wife. Why couldn't Tywin have married Sansa to Lancel after the purple wedding? He was finally on the mend and Tyrion wasn't getting the job done.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Joffrey himself poured it over Tyrion, correct? Suppose the "amethyst" had already been in there. What was Olenna going to do, rush over to fiddle with Sansa's hair again?

This is actually why I think Margaery ultimately did the deed herself. She more than anyone other than Joffrey had the most access to the cup and the best knowledge to determine when to slip the poison.

[Bippy]

This is actually why I think Margaery ultimately did the deed herself. She more than anyone other than Joffrey had the most access to the cup and the best knowledge to determine when to slip the poison.

That this was necessarily the case also makes it more likely that the blame would fall upon her unless Joff could really be manipulated FOR SURE into getting the chalice to Tyrion.

Edit: But in fairness it's no worse a "conspiracy" than much of what has happened in ASoIaF.