American Politics 20 - Halloween Edition

[Celtigo]

According to at least one poll the ultra-conservate Hoffman is leading in the 23rd district by 5 points. The poll was released by the ultra conservative group The Club for Growth, so I'm not sure how accurate it is. But most polls is showing the Republican candidate trailing the other two badly and is running out of money. The Club for Growth has contributed over $500,000 to Hoffman's campaign so it does so have a stake in showing he's ahead in the polls.

Nate Silver does a pretty good job breaking down why I wouldn't put much stock in this poll. The 23rd maybe the most conservative district in the state, but its still New York.

[Swordfish]

From the previous thread regarding Grayson.. apparently he did apologize for the whore remark. As I said before, I am not a fan of the name calling but his brandishing whore didn't trouble me as a woman.. it seems gender neutral w/regard to K street, I suspect the gender of the accused was incidental. I agree it's generally ill-advised to call a woman a whore in politics, though.

.

This is pretty much my take on it as well. Slightly uneasy in wqays I can't quantify, but I'm not sure the word should be completely off limits.

well its true you and commodore were the ones who totally bitched about that fake story on Obama.

Fail.

[DanteGabriel]

well its true you and commodore were the ones who totally bitched about that fake story on Obama.

To be fair, as TP pointed out, Swordfish did not say he bought into the legitimacy of the hoax.

Commodore was the main water-carrier for yet another Michael Ledeen bamboozlement... And he hasn't seen fit to pipe up in the politics threads since his horseshit was called out.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

What would these threads be without South Carolina republicans? ;)

[Annelise]

Beck and Newt Gingrich demonstrate the internal tussle evident in the NY 23rd:

Gingrich explained his support for Scozzafava at a book signing event yesterday: “She is the nominee of the local party, my bias is to be for the nominee of the local party, and I don’t second guess the local party.” On his Fox News program yesterday, Glenn Beck attacked Gingrich. “I couldn’t disagree more with you on this one,” Beck said, arguing, “You vote with a person you agree with most…and it doesn’t matter what party they’re in.”

Last night on Fox News’ On the Record, host Greta Van Susteren asked Gingrich about the “heat” he’s been getting for endorsing Scozzafava, especially from Beck. Gingrich fired back, saying the right-wing support for Hoffman is based on “misinformation” and an abandonment of conservative values:

GINGRICH: I just find it fascinating that my many friends who claim to be against Washington having too much power, they claim to be in favor of the 10th Amendment giving states back their rights, they claim to favor local control and local authority, now they suddenly get local control and local authority in upstate New York, they don’t like the outcome. [...]

So I say to my many conservative friends who suddenly decided that whether they’re from Minnesota or Alaska or Texas, they know more than the upstate New York Republicans? I don’t think so. And I don’t think it’s a good precedent. [...]

And so this idea that we’re suddenly going to establish litmus tests, and all across the country, we’re going to purge the party of anybody who doesn’t agree with us 100 percent — that guarantees Obama’s reelection. That guarantees Pelosi is Speaker for life. I mean, I think that is a very destructive model for the Republican Party.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/27/gingrich-beck-23/

[Annelise]

On a similar note:

Today on her radio program, Laura Ingraham interviewed guest Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) and asked her about the ideological direction of the Republican Party. The pair discussed recent statements made by retired GOP Senate Majority Leaders Bill Frist (TN) and Bob Dole (KS) in support of some type of comprehensive health reform.

Dole has called for Republicans to become engaged in the process, stating “we’ve got to do something” to solve the current crisis. Frist has endorsed the Senate Finance health reform bill, and has called out “people on the extreme” in his own party for falsely labeling President Obama’s health reform as “socialized medicine.” Clearly incensed by these comments, Ingraham and Bachmann traded barbs trashing the former Republican leaders for daring to veer away from a “pro-freedom agenda”:

INGRAHAM: Of course. God bless Bob Dole he just came on our show, I have great respect for the man. And also for Frist. But Frist presided over a pretty disastrous situation in the Senate.

BACHMANN: They lost.

INGRAHAM: They lost. And Bob Dole lost how many times on a national level? I guess I’ve lost count. [...] That Republican ideology and that Republican outlook has been a losing outlook. That’s why President Obama wants more of us to be like them.

BACHMANN: Because we want a pro-freedom agenda. And he’s trying to throw people around who he believes will increase a non-pro-freedom agenda.

On a different show:

KING: Would you want the Limbaugh, that crowd — would you want them to be your voice as the Republican Party stands in this country?

BACHMANN: Well remember it’s who the American people are referring to Larry. And the American people are looking to voices like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck –

KING: I just told you — it’s 2 percent of America. It’s 2 percent!

BACHMANN: If you look for a critical mass, that’s the movement, that’s the direction that the critical mass is going. And the American people are very smart people.

ETA: Speaking of Hannity..

“These ads inform New Yorkers that a million or more of their neighbors are good without God,” said Michael De Dora Jr., the executive director for the New York branch of the Center for Inquiry. “That is, a million of us have found or created natural morality, and lead good, productive, and meaningful lives without appeal to religious dogma or God.”

Sensing an opportunity to exploit the ads for political benefit, Hannity told his audience that a Christian group could never get away with airing ads like that:

Can you imagine the outrage if a Christian group put pro-God ads in the New York City subways? What outrage.

But as Subway Sights — a blog about the NYC subway system — explains, “The problem with this thinking is that Christians have been putting up pro-Christianity ads in the subway for years and nobody cares.” The blogger continues, “There are ads for all kinds of competing churches, each offering their own flavor of Christianity and their own path to salvation,” and offers this photograph as evidence:

Subway Sights concludes, “Of course, Sean Hannity doesn’t factor this into his argument because he doesn’t ride the subway and has no idea what he’s talking about.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/24/hannity-god-ad/

[DanteGabriel]

Oh that is rich. Michelle Bachmann, who as far as I can tell has done nothing in her life but crusade on Christianist propaganda and advance her own fortunes by stoking division and right wing craziness, is implying that Bob Dole, whose right arm is paralyzed by wounds sustained in World War 2, and bears two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star for valor, is not sufficiently pro-freedom.

With leaders like Bachmann, the Republican Party deserves to be run off a cliff like mammoths being stampeded to their doom.

[Peter Irving]

I've always favored kicking bachmans district out of Minnesota. Man do I hate that cunt. Pro freedom ? What about the freedom of Gays. She fucking lying cunt.

[TrackerNeil]

Peter, I don't like Bachmann myself, and I genuinely appreciate your obvious concern about gay rights, but maybe you could omit the "c" word here. There are plenty of things you could justifiably call Bachmann without using what I've always found to be an extremely anti-woman word. I'm not saying you are anti-woman - I am sure you are not - and I don't mean to be all lecturey, but I really hate that word.

Edited to add: BTW, I find it hilarious that Newt Gingrich is taking chong from conservatives for endorsing the Republican nominee for office. Next thing you know, Laura Ingraham and Barney Frank will go antiquing together.

[Frog Eater]

What would these threads be without South Carolina republicans? ;)

Compared to the other shit politicians in my state do, this is nothing. I will take it. Partying with an 18 year old stripper? sure.

[DanteGabriel]

I've always favored kicking bachmans district out of Minnesota. Man do I hate that cunt. Pro freedom ? What about the freedom of Gays. She fucking lying cunt.

Whoa there dude. There are many ways to accurately describe what a pernicious and dishonest person Michelle Bachmann is, without dropping the C-word.

[Swordfish]

Beck and Newt Gingrich demonstrate the internal tussle evident in the NY 23rd:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/27/gingrich-beck-23/

Who would have imagined in the mid nineties that newt friggin gingrich would someday sound like the voice of reason among prominent republican voices.....

[Annelise]

Whoa there dude. There are many ways to accurately describe what a pernicious and dishonest person Michelle Bachmann is, without dropping the C-word.

This reminds me ... after Bachmann stated that she's been made a top target by Pelosi on the LI show, Ingraham attacked Pelosi, the highest ranking woman in American political history, by making hissing & cat noises and declaring Pelosi doesn't like powerful women:

:rolleyes: I understand they are not representative of conservative women or conservatives on the whole, but it is another brick in the wall of that backward image regarding women so far as I'm concerned.

[BloodRider]

Who would have imagined in the mid nineties that newt friggin gingrich would someday sound like the voice of reason among prominent republican voices.....

Well lets be clear. Newt is touting that strategy specifically because that shit worked. It worked like a charm. So he is just goin' with what he knows.... Likewise the radio show flunkies. Thing is Newt got votes the radio show flunkies get ratings. Which one will give the Repubs back their power? I don't think it will be ratings.

That being said - I HATE what his strategy did to the legislative branch. I hold him and his contract for America as responsible for the rise of K-street. Not that was what he intended (I hope not) but he sure as hell was happy to let that cancer flourish once he realized the gains that could be gotten.

Still the man knew gov't and was brilliant at it....

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I think he may have missed a few things. First, I don't think there will be too many taxes linked to the public option. Individuals and companies that want it have to pay for it in premiums, so there shouldn't be too many taxes.

In the Senate version of the bill, and I believe in the House version as well, the public option is unsubsidized by the government and funded entirely by premiums. That could be changed later, but I can't imagine why.

Second, I still see that many version of the public option are flat-out not available to those who already have employer-based insurance (most of America). So some of these things could change over time I suppose. They could eventually open it up to all people like Wyden wants. But at the onset, I don't know that the things Sullivan suspects would happen so clearly. I kinda hope he's right though.

Oddly enough, Baucus' bill originally included a provision that would have gradually opened up the exchanges to everybody over the course ten to fifteen years. I'm not sure what happened to that.

[mcbigski]

On the topic of the public option...I read about the political genius of the opt-out plan on Sullivan's blog. He says that it effectively blackmails the leaders of conservative states because if they try to opt out, their constituents still have to pay taxes towards it federally yet reap no benefits. They would start looking across state lines and saying "Why don't I get that too?"

I think he may have missed a few things. First, I don't think there will be too many taxes linked to the public option. Individuals and companies that want it have to pay for it in premiums, so there shouldn't be too many taxes.

Right about the opt out - it'd be akin to the IRS offering taxpayers the ability to opt out of their tax refunds, but not their tax payments. It's not really an opt out in any meaningful sense, if you believe that the Public Option will cost more than premiums collected. Which I'm pretty sure everybody does - all of the contortioning to get the various proposals revenue neutral include some sort of tax increase.

It's kind of like the sound bite I heard on Rush today from Lieberman's speaking to Fox News yesterday. Basically, Lieberman said that most of the support for the Public Option is from people who think it will be free, but it has to be paid for somehow, and that it will end up being paid for by taxpayers and people with other insurance (via indirect subsidy, I think he was implying.)

[Peter Irving]

Sorry about that its just that bachman pisses me off she keeps claiming to be about freedom but wants to restart the McCarthy hearings and has repeated the extremely discredited bullshit that gays and lesbians have a mental disorder. Oh and this women called my states current governors policies which were meant to attract new businesses to the state marxist if your wondering how batshit insane she is.

I think the only other people in the two houses of congress who I dislike more are Oklaholmas two senators.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Right about the opt out - it'd be akin to the IRS offering taxpayers the ability to opt out of their tax refunds, but not their tax payments. It's not really an opt out in any meaningful sense, if you believe that the Public Option will cost more than premiums collected. Which I'm pretty sure everybody does - all of the contortioning to get the various proposals revenue neutral include some sort of tax increase.

That's not true. The CBO has been pretty consistent in saying that the public option (as envisioned by the Senate or the House) would be revenue positive, and the more like the Medicare+5 version it is, the bigger the savings.

The cost issue comes (primarily) from subsidies for people under a certain income threshold who are purchasing insurance on the health care exchange, as well as additional spending in Medicaid and SCHIP. Those subsidies aren't tied to the public option. If you lived in South Dakota, and South Dakota decided to opt out of the public option, you would still be eligible for the same amount of subsidies that you were before.

[Lord O' Bones]

Oh that is rich. Michelle Bachmann, who as far as I can tell has done nothing in her life but crusade on Christianist propaganda and advance her own fortunes by stoking division and right wing craziness, is implying that Bob Dole, whose right arm is paralyzed by wounds sustained in World War 2, and bears two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star for valor, is not sufficiently pro-freedom.

In a bizzare coincidence, I was explaining my love for Bob Dole in chat last night, and why the lack of Bob Doles is what is destroying the Republican party.

[DanteGabriel]

In a bizzare coincidence, I was explaining my love for Bob Dole in chat last night, and why the lack of Bob Doles is what is destroying the Republican party.

I fully agree... the crazies have taken over the party and the reasonable Republicans like Bob Dole are few and far between, and are mocked by the crazies as RINOs.