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Questioning the faith


Crazydog7

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People like Aristotle?

Never like philosophy. :P

Guy was cool and disovered some wicked things but I prefer to think that there is nothing that we can't understand given enough time. Anyway most of what he thought in regards to science has been largely replaced.

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No it doesn't. The 'search for truth' simply gives someone an inflated ego and an irritating conviction that they must be right. In my experience, anyway.

Notice that I mentioned humility as an element needed for any beneficial search for "truth". The belief that one is closer to the truth the everyone else except those that share ones beliefs is a flaw we see appear again and again in human history. Since religions usually address foundational concepts such as the meaning of life and the nature of the afterlife, if any, the temptation to claim a monopoly on the truth is quite strong. Its not only religion that suffers this fatal flaw. We've seen appear in other areas of human activity as well from political ideology (much of 20th century history is focused on conflict between competing political ideologies which in several cases developed a blind, brutal devotion in their adherants that would make most religious extremists proud to display in the cause of their faith) to economic systems. While I would agree that the arena of religious thought is more prone to such behavior than others its clear that this is something that is part of human nature. Getting ride of religion would not free us from violence and oppression in the name of truth. Anytime someone claims to know the TRUTH regardless of what they are speaking of, it is time to beware.

This still does not mean that seeking the truth is not a worthwhile endevour, at least when one realizes that actually finding TRUTH is beyond that which is possible for any human, and that the path you walk and the insights you gain can not be passed on to others as some kind of formula or recipe for their enlightenment. When one honestly seeks to better understand themselves and the world they live it they can grow as a person, can gain insight and understanding, and perhaps can even find some meaning in the world for themselves, but these are things that can not be shared. One has to take the journey and find their own way. We all do. In fact I would venture that we all walk the path intentionally or not. Trying to avoid doing so will leave one stumbling along the way. Those who seek the truth honestly are simply trying to shine enough light on their path to not trip over the many obsticals in the way. I would never claim to be able to see where the path is going, I'm just trying to see well enough to avoid stumbling ever other step.

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Never like philosophy. :P
I a much larger fan of the Pre-Socratic Atomists and the later Stoics and Epicureans.

Guy was cool and disovered some wicked things but I prefer to think that there is nothing that we can't understand given enough time. Anyway most of what he thought in regards to science has been largely replaced.
What about women?
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I a much larger fan of the Pre-Socratic Atomists and the later Stoics and Epicureans.

Uh... cool (no idea what that is)

What about women?

Alright I'll clarify by saying there is no rational thing that we can't understand given enough time.

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What about women?

:rofl:

Such a fixed anti-intellectual stance is odd. It seems so American too - not the good American, but George Bush American.

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Uh... cool (no idea what that is)
Wikipedia has a fairly nice introduction of the Pre-Socratics. I also recommend finding the handy Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is online.

Alright I'll clarify by saying there is no rational thing that we can't understand given enough time.
Oh, so now you're calling women irrational? That's going to fly over well on this board.

Such a fixed anti-intellectual stance is odd. It seems so American too - not the good American, but George Bush American.
I am puzzled, as well as troubled, by this attitude. I am uncertain as to a casual explanation of the phenomenon.
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People like you are the reason we took so damn long to figure out the earth revolved around the sun. :angry:

Now as for faith you can believe in anything you want as long as in the end you make your decisions yourself and are willing to keep an open mind. (this my seem counter to my arguments in the other thread but I'm really not against religion just fundies)

Eh? Please explain how 'people like me are the reason we took so long to figure out the earth revolved around the sun'. I'm completely against telling other people how to think/live.

Wow.... no. Great attitude if you want to make no contribution to humanity though. Wow.

Not everyone's a humanist. Deal with it.

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Notice that I mentioned humility as an element needed for any beneficial search for "truth". The belief that one is closer to the truth the everyone else except those that share ones beliefs is a flaw we see appear again and again in human history. Since religions usually address foundational concepts such as the meaning of life and the nature of the afterlife, if any, the temptation to claim a monopoly on the truth is quite strong. Its not only religion that suffers this fatal flaw. We've seen appear in other areas of human activity as well from political ideology (much of 20th century history is focused on conflict between competing political ideologies which in several cases developed a blind, brutal devotion in their adherants that would make most religious extremists proud to display in the cause of their faith) to economic systems. While I would agree that the arena of religious thought is more prone to such behavior than others its clear that this is something that is part of human nature. Getting ride of religion would not free us from violence and oppression in the name of truth. Anytime someone claims to know the TRUTH regardless of what they are speaking of, it is time to beware.

This still does not mean that seeking the truth is not a worthwhile endevour, at least when one realizes that actually finding TRUTH is beyond that which is possible for any human, and that the path you walk and the insights you gain can not be passed on to others as some kind of formula or recipe for their enlightenment. When one honestly seeks to better understand themselves and the world they live it they can grow as a person, can gain insight and understanding, and perhaps can even find some meaning in the world for themselves, but these are things that can not be shared. One has to take the journey and find their own way. We all do. In fact I would venture that we all walk the path intentionally or not. Trying to avoid doing so will leave one stumbling along the way. Those who seek the truth honestly are simply trying to shine enough light on their path to not trip over the many obsticals in the way. I would never claim to be able to see where the path is going, I'm just trying to see well enough to avoid stumbling ever other step.

A well-articulated and thought out response, and one i totally respect (if not personally adhere to). Frankly, people can do whatever they like, its the egocentric 'my philosophy is better than yours' idea (when the fact is that everything is theory and conjecture) which raises my ire.

I spent about five years obsessing over this subject, and eventually decided that i'd had enough. Life is to short to waste on philosophy.

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Well at least someone got it. :lol:

Eh? Please explain how 'people like me are the reason we took so long to figure out the earth revolved around the sun'. I'm completely against telling other people how to think/live.

Not everyone's a humanist. Deal with it.

You said

Searching for the 'truth' is completely futile, since we are imperfect. Just believe whatever makes you happy and live your life.

So why bother to find out the sun work through fusion, believe it's god with a blow torch and the earth stays were it is and because of that moronic belief we can never leave and explore space because we would wind up in the flames of said blow torch.

No it doesn't. The 'search for truth' simply gives someone an inflated ego and an irritating conviction that they must be right. In my experience, anyway.

Because the search for the truth and the scientists who do it aren't responsible for the incredible increase in quality of life and being able to expect to live past 60 and not die from disease, no the search for truth has nothing to do with that. Some scientist have ego's but so do ignorant morons, in fact I would contend that ignorant morons have more of an ego especially the religous ones because they have a book that claims to know everything. I've heard plenty of religous people claiming to know everything I've never heard a scientist make the same claim.

Your view on finding the truth keeps us from advancing. I'm not just going to let people believe whatever they want because that is what lead to some of the worst atrocities in history.

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Eh? Please explain how 'people like me are the reason we took so long to figure out the earth revolved around the sun'. I'm completely against telling other people how to think/live.

Ok, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that your way of thinking is the reason it took so long to figure out the earth revolves around the sun.

Also, since fewer and fewer people seem to think like you as humanity progresses, humanities progression should speed up as your lot shrinks.

Not everyone's a humanist. Deal with it.

It isn't that you aren't a humanist, it's that you are anti-intellectual, a brick in the crumbling wall of incurious, blind faith against the tide of progress.

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You said

So why bother to find out the sun work through fusion, believe it's god with a blow torch and the earth stays were it is and becuase of that moronic belief we can never leave and explore space because we would wind up in the flames of said blow torch.

This makes no sense. Humanity is not some giant collective where everyone shares the same views. We are all different, its part of what defines us. Me not giving a shit about scientific progress doesn't prevent my next door neighbour from inventing plasma guns.

The only way i could 'prevent' progress of this kind would be to actively work against it, which i don't do. You confuse me with the inquisition.

Because scientists searching for the truth aren't the people responsible for the incredible increase in quality of life and being able to expect to live past 60 and not die from disease. Some scientist have ego's but so do ignorant morons, in fact I would contend that ignorant morons have more of an ego especially the religous ones because they have a book that claims to know everything. I've heard plenty of religous people claiming to know everything I've never heard a scientist make the same claim.

Your view on finding the truth keeps us from advancing. I'm not just going to let people believe whatever they want because that is what lead to some of the worst atrocities in history.

I see. Perhaps I should be terminated for the good of the collective, since evidently all i do is use up airspace.

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Ok, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that your way of thinking is the reason it took so long to figure out the earth revolves around the sun.

Also, since fewer and fewer people seem to think like you as humanity progresses, humanities progression should speed up as your lot shrinks.

Don't care tbh.

It isn't that you aren't a humanist, it's that you are anti-intellectual, a brick in the crumbling wall of incurious, blind faith against the tide of progress.

And I'm damn proud of it.

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This makes no sense. Humanity is not some giant collective where everyone shares the same views. We are all different, its part of what defines us. Me not giving a shit about scientific progress doesn't prevent my next door neighbour from inventing plasma guns.

The only way i could 'prevent' progress of this kind would be to actively work against it, which i don't do. You confuse me with the inquisition.

I see. Perhaps I should be terminated for the good of the collective, since evidently all i do is use up airspace.

By posting about how it's pointless you are basically working against progress. Also people like you lead to creationists and creationists definately halt and actively work against progress.

And no you shouldn't be terminated, your opinion just shouldn't matter. I'm putting you in the same league as Kent Hovind.

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Is it really anti-intellectual or anti-curious? I know I have bias but the religious attitude to me seems quite anti-intellectual. Sometimes they are anti-curious too, see GWB, but I see all of them as oppontants of rationality and learning.

And perhaps its not all bad to have elements of anti-curiousity. There are some topics that don't interest me at all and I don't really think about them. Does that make me a bad idiot for not caring about X or Y? Perhaps.

I remember a while back when Relic got burned out (during GWB first term, iirc). He said he was just out of caring - he had sprained his care muscle and did eventually get back into it, but he had to take a break from it for a while. I totally understood - I got that way when GWB was elected the second time.

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