Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm surprised so many people are shocked. This kind of behaviour is fairly standard where i am.

[potsherds]

Being "one of the guys" does have some meaning when you're in an environment that is majority male. Even if you're not going to be BFFs, there's advantage to being able to mesh well with the group without being walked on.

See. I don't understand this phrase at all 'being one of the guys'. It's smacks of gender stereotypes from the start that just bugs. I used to try to be 'one of the guys' during high school and college because I liked the same nerdy things as nerdy guys that few women seemed interested in (at least that I could find) so I preferred guy friends because their interests interested me. But yah, it routinely meant being a doormat, letting sexist comments pass, or if I didn't feel like taking shit silently, dishing out the same sort of shit back. But did it ever stop, heck no. I've just gotten to the point in my life where I'm too fucking old and too fucking tired of that behaviour, and if guys are gonna act like childish dicks, fuck 'em. I've dropped a number of guy friends lately specifically for treating my like shit around their other guy friends (they're the nicest guys when it's just me and them). I hate posing, I hate gender expectations in regards to how to treat the opposite sex in group settings. I hate it. I just won't deal with it anymore. Guys can either act maturely or stay the hell away from me because they're going to get a earful from me about what a jackass they're being.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I'm surprised so many people are shocked. This kind of behaviour is fairly standard where i am.

Does not make it right.

Also, stop being an apologist for sexual harassment.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Well I personally am terrified of offending girls/women. Comes from growing up with a very sensitive sister. I'm not being an apologist for this sort of behaviour, merely trying to explain why it happens. Its not as simple as 'men are evil'.

[Kat]

Well I personally am terrified of offending girls/women. Comes from growing up with a very sensitive sister. I'm not being an apologist for this sort of behaviour, merely trying to explain why it happens. Its not as simple as 'men are evil'.

Rape Culture 101

(Actually that link is for anyone who's even the least bit defending this behavior.)

[ljkeane]

I'm surprised so many people are shocked. This kind of behaviour is fairly standard where i am.

I'm not sure what sort of people you're friends with but I know a lot of guys that make some pretty crude jokes but I've never heard anyone say anything like "rape you dead" to a girl.

[Errant Bard]

I'd also suppose that the whole concept of 'posing' is a rather dangerous one; given that 'talking behind peoples' backs' is the seed of all discrimination, I am not sure the 'merely' isn't a bit more than that. If you say that anyone of non-white descent is a bit daft it's still racism, even if only white people are present.

True enough, but what I have generally witnessed really didn't have any bite behind it, and it wasn't generalizations. Comments more crude and more sexual, sometimes over the top, contradicted by what the guy will say when serious, I can't take them to heart.

Then again, I laugh at dead babies jokes. Maybe I'm an horrible person.

Now i'm wondering if thats really ok, and i'm feeling guilty for all those jokes I let slip by (And also annoyed, becuase, yes, they were annoying as all fuck in any context) without comment, knowing that somewhere down the line they're creating an atmosphere where its ok to yell "we'll rape you dead" to 16 year old girls, and i'm sitting there, all would be feminist, and letting it slip by.

Ugh. This sounds real bad. What environment can make a young guy even want to sing something like that? I remember doing something that when I was 7, but as a near adult? :sick:

I don't even understand how it fall to a feminist to make them shut up. Isn't it common sense for any adult to prevent bullying, ostracization and otherwise distasteful conduct among their charges?

Anyway, my sympathies, I just hope that after your row you'll send a stronger signal that it's not OK and that it'll be taken into consideration. I just wonder, could you become the target of these brats, if you were to take a firm stance? That would suck.

[Yagathai]

*straps on flamethrower and asbestos armor*

[Rockroi]

Datepalm:

I am late to this but here are my two cents:

I think your actions were justifiable and correct under the circumstances. The reason why there was such "shock and awe" was because p until your "snapped" moment, you had basically put up with their behavior. And this is normal: you probably thought "Okay, I'll grin and bear this; I am sure it won't last long and/or maybe I'll get used to it." But as time went on it became more and more apparent that this dofus was such a monumental attention whore; in so need of validation for his immaturity; so remarkably unfunny that he was not going to stop.

What shocked them was not that you "snapped" but that to THAT point you had registered mostly silence and silence (in this day and age) is basically consent. The "dudes" were just shocked in the most literal sense (not related to electricity). If you could have put those cartoon "thought bubbles" over their heads it would have said "But she never said anything before?"

To them you were the one who acted inappropriately becasue up until then, you had been "cool" with their crass humor. I want to stress here that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES doe sthis somehow mean that they were justified in their assumption, just that that was how their feeble minds worked.

I have done this many times; finally the way somebody acts or what they are saying just grates on you. At first you do nothing and then they do it and do it and do it and finally BAM!! STFU already!!!! And then everyone looks at you like you are the problem.

I guess my "advice" would be to raise your objection firmly when it first bothers you OR when you realize its not going to stop. This way you won't "snap". Also, in my experience, put them on the spot NOT by "ordering" (people hate to be bossed around by their peers) but by posing the question. Here is an example:

Dick: Well, what does that have to do with VAGINA? (stupid laughter follows)

DP: Why did you say that?

Dick: Say what?

DP: (Smiling, half laughing) Vagina? I mean, what was the point of that?

Dick (he will be more serious now) It was funny!

DP: (completely ignores answer) Oh, God. I'm sorry do you have Turrets? That must be terrible for you?

Dick: I don't have Turrets!

DP: Then why do you just randomly say strange things? And why is it always "vagina?" I mean, try saying a body-part you have actually laid eyes on.

Dick: Its funny its not my fault you don't find it funny.

DP: (again, completely ignores attempt to make her the center of attention) Seriously, would you talk that way around your mother? Or any of your friends' mothers? (DP now looks at another one of the guys) Seriosuly, would you LET Dick talk to your mother like that? (again, massive offensive to take the emphasis off of her and put it on them).

(and continues on)

The point is to put his behavior up for debate, not YOU for being offended. This is not about YOUR reaction; its about his infantile behavior. Make sure you treat it as such. And if you are able to keep him on that defensive, he will get the hint and stop his atrocious behavior.

The main thing is to take the emphasis off you and put it on him. You do that and he'll calm down.

[Mo Sneachd]

Testosterone is to blame really.

Ahem. *enter random pseudo-scientific comment*

...no it's not. 1. Women produce a certain amount of testoterone; if this kind of behaviour is a result of testoterone concentration, that would sort of imply that everyone would at least have an affinity to this kind of behaviour, hence even if women have a lower concentration than men, they'd still be less angry about it; 2. I very very VERY much doubt that any trans-guy on hormone treatment would do this kind of stuff at all.

Ergo: Behavorial than biological, and social rather than genetic.

Blame hormones you must not. It is known.

[Guest Raidne]

The worst of it was a song, yelled at the top of the lungs by a group of 10-15 boys, again and again, all the time, for three days, across hills and valleys crowded with hikers, to I think a specific 16 year old girl (possibly a group of them, but I do think it was aimed at one by name) and including lines like, roughly translated, "we're gonna rip you apart, rape you dead, come in your throat, you're not only a whore but also a huge bitch", etc.

Oh boy. This is bad. In the states, one could arguably say that you were breaking the law by not doing everything in your power to put an end to that behavior.

I've to be honest. If someone was making jokes like the sort you're talking about, I'd humiliate the bastard until he STFU. But if, say, people were singing songs like that to my 16 year old daughter and nobody at the school did anything, I'd hopefully be able to restrain myself from actual acts of violence and just sue them out of existence. My blood pressure rises just thinking about it. You might be offended, but that poor girl is going to be traumatized.

I would not want that on my conscience. You have to do something about that. And if the powers that be have already told you that you can't stop that behavior, I think I'd be tempted to report them to the media and the relevant government agencies, not to mention all the parents of all the girls who participate in the program. And then I'd wait for them to fire me and enjoy the fruits of my retaliation and whistleblower claims, not to mention your own sexual harassment suit. Hell, just quit and argue constructive discharge, just consult with a lawyer on how best to quit first.

So, given my totally different response with this new information, I guess those two things are pretty different for me. I mean, you can make your own decisions about when you want to have to deal with being a feminist and when you just don't. I understand that. Sometimes it's just too much to police all the time. It really is. But for someone else's sake, it's not your choice anymore.

My two cents.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Rape Culture 101

(Actually that link is for anyone who's even the least bit defending this behavior.)

Gods, that is a hell of a read. The fact that it has so many links to so many horrific stories makes me incredibly sad.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I'm surprised so many people are shocked. This kind of behaviour is fairly standard where i am.

If I ever heard that my son or any of his friends talked that way (the kids singing) I would have blasted any of them, not caring what their parents had to say about it.

That kind of talk is NEVER acceptable. I am so glad I don't live anywhere near you.

DatePalm: :grouphug: So sorry you had to endure that crap, and I hope the talk with the boss will correct things for the future.

As for the students, if you are their guides, then your company should be able to set rules for appropriate behavior, and "singing" about commiting violent crimes against anyone, should not be considered appropriate.

[The Iceman of the North]

As for the students, if you are their guides, then your company should be able to set rules for appropriate behavior, and "singing" about commiting violent crimes against anyone, should not be considered appropriate.

Even if she was a complete stranger and had no connection to the kids at all, as an adult it should be a goddamn duty to put an end to something like that.

[ztemhead]

kid was obviously intentionally trying to irritate you, and you specifically, datepalm.

find a way to irritate him back.

[Guest Raidne]

Also, SNAY, I have a lot of male friends, many of them quite crude, and even back when we were 18 or so they might have told me a story about other guys saying stuff like that, but they themselves would never in a million, million years sing a song like that to some girl, or make the kind of relentless jokes that we're talking about here. Because, here's the thing: unlike one of favorite chat games (winner: No Country for Old Men), those jokes were just not funny. There is an inverse funny/offensive rule, and while more people than Don Imus don't get it, it's not too much to expect most people to, anymore than it's not too much to expect most people not to be insufferable bores in a thousand other ways.

[Yagathai]

Ahem. *enter random pseudo-scientific comment*

...no it's not. 1. Women produce a certain amount of testoterone; if this kind of behaviour is a result of testoterone concentration, that would sort of imply that everyone would at least have an affinity to this kind of behaviour, hence even if women have a lower concentration than men, they'd still be less angry about it; 2. I very very VERY much doubt that any trans-guy on hormone treatment would do this kind of stuff at all.

Ergo: Behavorial than biological, and social rather than genetic.

Blame hormones you must not. It is known.

Everyone does have an affinity for this kind of behaviour.

Furthermore, many many FTMs on hormone therapy have reported an increase in aggression (sexual and otherwise) and anger after beginning their transition -- to speak nothing of the well-known mood-altering side effects of testosterone supplementation and anabolic steroid use. It also affects the way the brain develops, the way the body reacts to sexual stimuli... it's a big deal.

Obviously hormones aren't the total picture, and like most human behaviour what we're talking about here is a complex combination of both nature and nurture, biology and social conditioning, but I think it's terribly irresponsible and short-sighted to dismiss biology's contribution to the mix.

[amicoa]

Is sad that we have things like rape culture, but I think is mostly built into our social structure. Not saying is good just saying is going to take time to lessen its hold, dont think we're ever going to make sexist tensions go away.

[Datepalm]

Unfortunately, its not really hugely atypical, just harsher - and louder - than i'd ever heard before, and I was shocked because i'd been away from that age group for about a year.

Raidne - You're right, and it did go through my head - media, parents, something. But I also know that this isn't some wildely unusual case, and that everyone is going to see it - teachers and girl yelled at included - as maybe a bit offensive, but still, "just humor", and certainly not complain. It wasn't like the real, relevant, educational authorities weren't aware of it - teachers, guides, a parent, were all right there. (What leads to this more or less is that the education system gives up on any problem kids somewhere at the end of junior high, lumps them all into one, almost entirely male, "do your best" class, gives them the social stigma of it for the rest of their school career, and of course, the least resources and worst teachers.)

My company has nothing to do with the school, BTW - they could have been tourists or the university geology department or anyone, and i'll likely never see any of them again. (Probably. This school, unusually, is actually in my part of town and some of the kids live in my neighbourhood, which is probably part of the reason I took it so hard. Unfortunately, i'm not of an age anymore where I might know them or their parents.)

Rockroi- thanks for the sentiment, but ultimately while i'm sorry I was so unconstructive about it, I don't mind that I did snap at him eventually, (just that I was so disjoined about it and with the calling the boss, who I know is useless.) and I certainly don't see the point in trying to prove to him they're stupid jokes. We all know that, the problem is that their humor is also sexist. (I tell dead baby and holocaust jokes too, but they don't contribute to a culture of violence against holocaust survivors.)

Seriously, great thanks to everyone for the space to vent and to cool off and get focused. :grouphug:

I'd had vauge plans in that direction, but today has fairly convinced me I do need to get back into volunteering in education specifically.

[Guest Raidne]

Raidne - You're right, and it did go through my head - media, parents, something. But I also know that this isn't some wildely unusual case, and that everyone is going to see it - teachers and girl yelled at included - as maybe a bit offensive, but still, "just humor", and certainly not complain. It wasn't like the real, relevant, educational authorities weren't aware of it - teachers, guides, a parent, were all right there. (What leads to this more or less is that the education system gives up on any problem kids somewhere at the end of junior high, lumps them all into one, almost entirely male, "do your best" class, gives them the social stigma of it for the rest of their school career, and of course, the least resources and worst teachers.)

My company has nothing to do with the school, BTW - they could have been tourists or the university geology department or anyone, and i'll likely never see any of them again. (Probably. This school, unusually, is actually in my part of town and some of the kids live in my neighbourhood, which is probably part of the reason I took it so hard. Unfortunately, i'm not of an age anymore where I might know them or their parents.)

Hmmm...that's an interesting twist. I still think I'm inclined to say that if one of them broke a leg while out with your organization, you would no doubt be held responsible. But it is a little different than if you were directly employed by the school. I don't know about Israel, but in the US, this probably changes everything enough that you wouldn't be legally protected for your actions, either.

I think I'd write a letter to the editor. Anonymous if necessary. And if I had the means to tell the parents of the girls more directly, I would. Again, I don't know what the law is in Israel, but not immediately stopping that kind of behavior at school in the US is hands down illegal, as in, not even questionable.

Honestly, if 10-15 guys had been singing that to me when I was 16, I would probably still be having nightmares about it. I'm still get over guys snapping and unhooking my bra and trying to look down my shirt in class when I was 12.