World Cup 2010 - Prelude to South Africa

[Mr. X]

What exactly did this Henry character do? I can't youtube from here, and I'm having trouble picturing how a handball could both result in a goal and not be seen.

Basically, Henry used his forearm and hand to redirect a ball that would have been going out of bounds for an Ireland goal kick. He guided the ball down to his foot and crossed it to an unmarked teammate who headed it into the goal.

There were a number of defenders between Henry and the ref, possibly obscuring the ref's line of sight and making him not see the handball.

[Lord O' Bones]

Basically, Henry used his forearm and hand to redirect a ball that would have been going out of bounds for an Ireland goal kick. He guided the ball down to his foot and crossed it to an unmarked teammate who headed it into the goal.

There were a number of defenders between Henry and the ref, possibly obscuring the ref's line of sight and making him not see the handball.

Thanks! That makes sense. I was thinking incorrectly that he had somehow scored the goal, not set one up.

[Renasko]

He may as well have...*grumbes*

[Horus Ex Machina]

You have done nothing of the sort.

Thank you.

[mormont]

You have done nothing of the sort.

I'm afraid I did.

The opinion expressed was that players have no duty not to cheat: I cited evidence from both the laws of the game and the FIFA Code of Conduct that shows that players do, explicitly, have a duty not to cheat.

You may not care about the fact that players don't live up to that duty, and you may not think the duty is important. But as I said way back, to claim that because someone doesn't live up to a duty, it doesn't exist, is nonsense.

[Jorund]

I'm afraid I did.

The opinion expressed was that players have no duty not to cheat: I cited evidence from both the laws of the game and the FIFA Code of Conduct that shows that players do, explicitly, have a duty not to cheat.

You may not care about the fact that players don't live up to that duty, and you may not think the duty is important. But as I said way back, to claim that because someone doesn't live up to a duty, it doesn't exist, is nonsense.

Then you shouldn't watch any FIFA or UEFA or even any national league games because you'll never find this behaviour from them.

Just name one player who hasn't ever twisted the rules somehow : diving, handball, grabing the opponent's jersey, fouling to stop the other team from scoring ...

You probably won't find anyone in professional football. I don't say that's good I'm just saying that's the way of pro football.

To inforce my point, just look at whom they've named as the best player in Europe last year : Ronaldo is probably the lamest player I've seen, but I think he's also the best. Not that I can find some love for the man but the people making the game are voting for him so I guess tat's the way they want the game to be played.

[The Iceman of the North]

I guess you're of the opinion that it's not your responsibility to drive within the speed limits either?

[Paddy]

How many times are people going to trot out the "every player does it" argument? Are you reading the posts in this thread?

As has been repeatedly stated, that argument does not make it ok.

It does not mean that players are not responsible for their behaviour and decisions to break the rules. It simply means that those who break the rules are responsible for breaking the rules.

Saying "it's just the way of pro football" is nothing more than excusing these players of their responsibility. Like I've said several times, if people would stop with that attitude and instead chastise players for breaking the rules, it would be very difficult for such a culture to exist.

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

No, it is an opinion that I have shown to be wrong.

No. It is an opinion that you have shown that I don't share with FIFA; wrong has nothing to do with it. FIFA is a political entity and that means that they decide what the rules are and how they should be enforced, it doesn't mean that they can decide what's right or wrong. You might as well argue that someone who disagrees with their government is wrong because it's the government that decides how things are.

That's very sad, not least for you.

Condescending much?

The situation you describe as the truth is just an ideal paper product; it doesn't exist in reality. I on the other hand can see the type of football I want whenever I watch a game: defenders will shove and pull shirts at corners or trip a player and take a yellow card to prevent a scoring opportunity. These are behaviours that fall under "unsportmanlike conduct" according to the rulebook, but they are also common occurences that are essential to the game of football as it is played today. I don't see anything sad with watching a sport and expecting a quality that is actually present.

[Jorund]

I guess you're of the opinion that it's not your responsibility to drive within the speed limits either?

Let me just check the laws of my nation to see if there is something about handballs and ... no there isnt. This is just a game.

I'm not saying that it is ok , moral , good : the ruling is the duty of the ref , not of the players and it never has.

[The Iceman of the North]

So by playing football you don't have to follow the laws of the game?

[Calibandar]

I'm surprised Russia lost. They weren't that bad in their qualifying campaign. Hiddink couldn't pull it off. Now we have Slovenia and Slovakia, two total unknowns.

Portugal without Ronaldo but still two wins, they deserve it. As does Greece, ultimately the Ukraine isn't a great side, neither is Greece, not looking forward to seeing them play.

The Irish will rightly feel robbed. Henry was of course disgusting. There is definitly a sentiment many share that Fifa was in general very keen to have France qualify and this mishit from the ref plays into that as well. On the other hand, without that foul goal Ireland still wasn't through, would still have had to play penalties, missed too many chances. On the other hand you can't say France deserved it either bases on how weak they played. They were well behind Serbia in their qualifying campaign, were total shit during EC 2008 and even before that, and continue to be total shit against Ireland. How deep they have fallen. And Domenech is still there.

They will hope young players like Ribery & Benzema may be able to do something for them to help them get out of the mud on the WC2010.

Mostly though, this is once more a great advertisement for the use of video camera's in football. Many millions of people around the world want it, it's used in many other sports, nearly all the experts on football feel it's essential for the fairness of the game that the use of video is allowed, and Fifa still won't do it. How long will they be able to hold this off, thye've been doing so for 20 years now, resisting all calls for aid to the refs.

Referees are people. People are flawed. People have good moments and poor moments. People also tend to succumb to pressure. Refs are under great pressure. The number of poor moments a person has grows under great pressure. It's all so simple. Help these people. Help the refs. Help the teams. Help the fans who want to see a fair game, and not lose because of incorrect calls for offside which happens all the time.

Do it like they do in tennis with Hawk-Eye. Give each side a maximum of 3 moments per match where they can question a call related to offside or whether a ball has fully crossed the line. If the team is wrong and the ref is correct, they lose 1 right to question, 2 remain. Maybe you can even extend it to detemine if a penalty was the result of a clear dive or not.

Just make use of the technology available.

[DJDonegal]

This argument is doing my head in.

Then you shouldn't watch any FIFA or UEFA or even any national league games because you'll never find this behaviour from them.

Just name one player who hasn't ever twisted the rules somehow : diving, handball, grabing the opponent's jersey, fouling to stop the other team from scoring ...

You probably won't find anyone in professional football. I don't say that's good I'm just saying that's the way of pro football.

To inforce my point, just look at whom they've named as the best player in Europe last year : Ronaldo is probably the lamest player I've seen, but I think he's also the best. Not that I can find some love for the man but the people making the game are voting for him so I guess tat's the way they want the game to be played.

First paragraph - you've missed the point. Mormont is not saying he EXPECTS players to do what the FIFA rules say, but he is saying they should because they have a DUTY to do it, so if they don't do it, they are breaking the rules. Just because YOU say that people are doing it at all levels of professional competition does NOT make it RIGHT. Nor has Mormont ever said he will stop watching football because this behaviour occurs, so why are you telling him to stop watching football at these levels?

Second paragraph - Gary Lineker.

Third paragraph - see my comments on first paragraph.

Fourth paragraph - please tell me how "best" equals "most honest". This argument is about honesty, not ability. FIFA's choice for player of the year is a non-issue.

[kuroishi]

The Irish will rightly feel robbed. Henry was of course disgusting. There is definitly a sentiment many share that Fifa was in general very keen to have France qualify and this mishit from the ref plays into that as well. On the other hand, without that foul goal Ireland still wasn't through, would still have had to play penalties, missed too many chances. On the other hand you can't say France deserved it either bases on how weak they played. They were well behind Serbia in their qualifying campaign, were total shit during EC 2008 and even before that, and continue to be total shit against Ireland. How deep they have fallen. And Domenech is still there.

They will hope young players like Ribery & Benzema may be able to do something for them to help them get out of the mud on the WC2010.

This I really don't get. How can you blame the referee for this ? What proof do you have that he had instruction from FIFA ? As Paddy said earlier in the discussion, if the referee had wanted a french victory, he would have given the penalty to Anelka. It would have been discussed, but penalties have been allowed for less than that and in the end that would have been way less polemical.

He didn't see the hand, and his assistant didn't either, which is totally understandable given the number of players around. A referee can't take into consideration something that he and his assistants didn't see, that's the rule. You can speak of video or more referee as much as you want, but in no way can the referee of this game be blamed for this goal.

Benzema has never given any proof on international level that he could be an asset to the french team. He might be a gifted player, but he has a shitty behaviour (maybe due to his age).

[Paddy]

Kuroishi, according to the wording of what Calibandar said, he wasn't expressing that as his own opinion, but showing what people were thinking.

And he's right. They do. I agree that it makes no sense, but there you have it.

However, there's nothing hidden about FIFA wanting the "better" teams (France and Portugal) in the WC. As I said before, seeding a draw is what you do when you want to create a higher chance of more of the higher seeds qualifying.

It's just absurd to suggest that the referee of the France-Ireland game was premeditatedly trying to ensure that France qualified.

[WiseFool]

There is definitly a sentiment many share that Fifa was in general very keen to have France qualify

Why is that, I wonder ? Not as if France was magnificent, quite the contrary... They've been shitty since WC2002 in spite of some redeeming games (Spain-France and France-Brazil in the last WC for example)

Even in France, the general feeling is that, although the team looks great on the paper, they don't give fans much to cheer for.

Well, one can always hope they'll improve by then and will amaze everybody in SA.

Regarding France-Ireland : ugly handball by Henry, no excuse there. Huge mistake from the ref, which is a shame as he was quite good until then. But you can't blame Henry for not speaking up. I'm not saying it should be excused or overlooked or that cheating should be encouraged. I'm just saying that nobody would have gone to the referee to cancel the goal. Not with what was at stake : it was a ticket for the World Cup and a whole country is hoping for that, let's not forget. Henry would have been my hero if he had confessed to the ref the handball but, let's be honest, no player would have done that.

Which is why I condemn the gesture but understand the attitude. And again, I don't excuse it, just, I wouldn't have done better and so can't critisize.

That said, France didn't deserve their ticket that day, even without the handball. But they do deserve Domenech !

Kidding nobody should live that :P

[Paddy]

Have you read the thread?

[Jorund]

This argument is doing my head in.

First paragraph - you've missed the point. Mormont is not saying he EXPECTS players to do what the FIFA rules say, but he is saying they should because they have a DUTY to do it, so if they don't do it, they are breaking the rules. Just because YOU say that people are doing it at all levels of professional competition does NOT make it RIGHT. Nor has Mormont ever said he will stop watching football because this behaviour occurs, so why are you telling him to stop watching football at these levels?

Second paragraph - Gary Lineker.

Third paragraph - see my comments on first paragraph.

I'm not saying he should stop watching football, he's right to want to have fair games and I'm the first one to advocate the video (see my first post in this topic). The thing is, most games have bad calls : handball not seen , wrong call for offside, for diving players. So, apart from this happening in a high stake game, this is routine in pro football. So why the big surprise ? Why people watching football are surprised by all this mess ?

It's good it made such a big impact though, cause we may have the video ref sooner.

That said, France didn't deserve their ticket that day, even without the handball. But they do deserve Domenech !

Kidding nobody should live that tongue.gif

Even Henry doesn't deserve Domenech.

[Calibandar]

Kuroishi

You can speak of video or more referee as much as you want, but in no way can the referee of this game be blamed for this goal.

My advocating the use of video techniques stands apart from whether or not the ref should have seen the handball. The fact of the matter is that he didn't, and if we'd be allowed the use of video, the goal would have been disallowed and France wouldn't have been able to cheat it's way into WC 2010.

He didn't see the hand, and his assistant didn't either, which is totally understandable given the number of players around

Well let's not give the ref too much of a pass here. He should have seen it. It was a critical moment and he wasn't in the right position to see it, which is his prime responsibility.

As I mentioned above, a ref is a human and humans are very, very fallible, even more so under pressure. It's quite possible that he didn't see the handball, and you can say that since he is only human, he can only see so much, and I agree that this is true. However that doesn't take away from the fact that it is his responsibility to see it, and he didn't, which is a critical error on his part.

The use of video would have clarified the moment, would have seen the goal disallowed and Henry been handed a yellow card at the least, and would have changed the remainder of the game because with Ireland 0-1 up rather than 1-1, France would then be in a position where they couldn't focus just on defense, possibly providing more chances for Ireland to score the 0-2.

[kuroishi]

Kuroishi, according to the wording of what Calibandar said, he wasn't expressing that as his own opinion, but showing what people were thinking.

And he's right. They do. I agree that it makes no sense, but there you have it.

However, there's nothing hidden about FIFA wanting the "better" teams (France and Portugal) in the WC. As I said before, seeding a draw is what you do when you want to create a higher chance of more of the higher seeds qualifying.

It's just absurd to suggest that the referee of the France-Ireland game was premeditatedly trying to ensure that France qualified.

Well, maybe I misunderstood the word "mishit", but I felt that it implied a wrong-doing by the referee when, even if it can be hard to swallow, there was none.

And I won't deny that the seeding was a way to favour the so-called "big teams", I already felt ill at ease when I first heard that they would do it (and a little bit relieved, too... even if, in the end, Ireland may well have been the worst opponent to us).

edit to correct (no, I was not "ill at east")