The Judging Eye V

[Papirolle]

"...The way good men shine brighter than good women. Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow. The world is unequal in the eyes of the God - she understands this with intimate profundity. Masters over slaves, men over women, lions over crows: At every turn, the scriptures enumerate the rank of things. But for terrifying moments, the merest of heartbeats, it is unequal in her eyes as well."

Serpents glow holy? If serpents are holy and the Cishaurim carry them around their necks, use them instead of sight...interesting indeed!

[Shryke]

This is a terribly silly debate, not sure why you started it. ;) There are plenty of books that are not all about matrices or wave-functions, and suddenly there is a philosophical QM reference. One of the Hyperion books comes to mind, where there was an actual S-Cat prison. Or all the silly books that are premised on the many worlds interpretation. :lol:

If anything, attacking someone's philosophical idea in a book for being based on QM is the non-sequitur.

For the record, QM is not solely a non-macroscopic phenomenon: e.g., superconductivity, superfluidity, the stability of bulk matter, neutron stars, etc., etc. Nor is QM predicated on quarks being necessarily "fundamental." And all of nature uses the language of mathematics, that's not a QM specific feature. I guess no non-mathematical books are about nature. :rofl:

He has a point though. Bakker's metaphysics have, so far, fallen along philisophical lines. He's never shown ANY inclination to use physics or, really, anything scientific at all.

Hell, the world is explicitly UNscientific.

[unJon]

He has a point though. Bakker's metaphysics have, so far, fallen along philisophical lines. He's never shown ANY inclination to use physics or, really, anything scientific at all.

Hell, the world is explicitly UNscientific.

Yep, as I said, QM violates the prinicple of Logos, so Bakker is unlikely to go there.

[JGP]

Yep, as I said, QM violates the prinicple of Logos, so Bakker is unlikely to go there.

But not the gnosis, so maybe he's already been.

[jurble]

Hell, the world is explicitly UNscientific.

But the Inchoroi did have lasers, space-ships, and genetic engineering; and the lasers functioned until their batteries ran out. That reminds me, is the Heron Spear is a physical spear, or some sort of space-age weaponry?

[Tarapas Amran]

Big laser-spear :)

[Talyn]

Not buried, not hidden, but writ like another colour or texture across the hide of everything . The way good men shine brighter than good women. Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow. The world is unequal in the eyes of the God - she understands this with intimate profundity. Masters over slaves, men over women, lions over crows: At every turn, the scriptures enumerate the rank of things. But for terrifying moments, the merest of heartbeats, it is unequal in her eyes as well."

Does that last part seem that the scriptures themselves are in some way unequal and that to god some rankings are more important than others? That's what I seem to be getting from it.

[unJon]

But not the gnosis, so maybe he's already been.

Disagree. Moe said it did not violate the Logos and I believe him.

[Happy Ent]

Does that last part seem that the scriptures themselves are in some way unequal and that to god some rankings are more important than others? That's what I seem to be getting from it.

I don’t understand your question, so let me just try to rephrase what I get from the quoted passage.

1. The scriptures describe a world where things are unequal. Masters over slaves, men over women, etc. (This, by the way, is identical to the scriptures in our own world.)

2. Mimi’s judging eyes shows her that this is true in principle: things are indeed not equal: serpents over pigs, for example. Do note that the quote is deliciously ambivalent about whether the scriptures are right in the details. Masters over slaves, for example, is not confirmed by the judging eye, nor do we know is serpents are described as pwning pigs in the Tusk.

Taking a step back, this is explicitly part of Bakker’s programme or ambition with these books. He does not describe a world where merely scripture and convention describes things as unequal. Instead, he describes a world where things are indeed unequal. Pigs are indeed unclean, not only because a sacred text (like the Bible in our world) says so.

Do note that Kellhus, as an agent of modernity, is at variance with the constraints of the metaphysical reality. In our reality, where we blame an appearance of inequality on convention, Kellhus would be well aligned with our understanding of the metaphysics. (Because you and I don’t actually think that pigs are any more unclean than serpents.)

I must confess that I have no idea what is actually means to live in a world where pigs are unclean (as opposed to our world, where pigs are merely assumed to be unclean).

[jurble]

So, I want to know more about Unification. Why did it take so long? It took a year to conquer a nice chunk of the Eastern Three Seas during the Holy War. I assume the Western Three Seas didn't put up much of a fight, seeing as how they were Inrithi, really, from the text, it seems Nilnamesh took a very very long time to conquer. But why? Did their drug-haze make them all immune to Kellhus' powers?

[Rhadamanth]

I think Nilnamesh is full of difficult terrain and probably not really important on Kellhus' agenda in the beginning. Perhaps the drug hazed Nilnameshi weren't much of a threat so they could be absorbed last. The Western Three-Seas were much more important strategically. They had more resources and more potential enemies.

[Talyn]

I don’t understand your question, so let me just try to rephrase what I get from the quoted passage.

Yes I got that as well. This is the passage that I was referring to and found very interesting.

At every turn, the scriptures enumerate the rank of things. But for terrifying moments, the merest of heartbeats, it is unequal in her eyes as well."

It seems to imply that the holy writings are unequal to go in the same sort of way that men and woman are unequal.

[Shryke]

No, what it's saying is that the scriptures always talk about how things are unequal. How a serpent is better then a pig or some such. And it's saying that, for some moments, she sees that unequalness too.

Anyone can read about how pigs are worse then snakes, but she SEES it.

[Talyn]

Ok, I get it now. Thanks.

[JGP]

Disagree. Moe said it did not violate the Logos and I believe him.

Putting aside Moe's obvious, yet limited, fallibility-- how would it violate the Logos?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

So, I want to know more about Unification. Why did it take so long? It took a year to conquer a nice chunk of the Eastern Three Seas during the Holy War. I assume the Western Three Seas didn't put up much of a fight, seeing as how they were Inrithi, really, from the text, it seems Nilnamesh took a very very long time to conquer. But why? Did their drug-haze make them all immune to Kellhus' powers?

A war in High Ainon is mentioned at some point, so we can assume that at least some of the lands fought against Kellhus. High Ainon, Nilnamesh, possibly parts of the Nansurium (though with the Imperial Saik and most of the Columns on Kellhus' side this seems unlikely), possibly Ce Tydonn and Thunyerus. Galeoth and Conriya almost certainly came to Kellhus immediately, given the powerful support of Saubon and Proyas, respectively. The eastern Three Seas also had to be fully conquered, rather than just run through by the Holy War. Keep in mind that as of the end of TTT, although the armies of Kian had been essentially destroyed, its capital and richest provinces were still unconquered and presumably still defended.

So, given that there would be wars on both sides of the Three Seas, it seems reasonable for the wars to take so long. Kellhus wouldn't have the money to finance multiple wars simultaneously, probably.

My question is whether or not Kellhus ever conquers Cironj or the other lands outside of the main nations, like Sansor, Cingulat, or Kutnarmu.

[Rhadamanth]

If Kellhus didn't conquer those nations, I guess he would have used his influence and intelligence to get what he needed from them anyway. Kinda the way he maneuvered Zeum where he wanted. I wonder why he didn't receive levies from Zeum or anything like that. Perhaps he wanted Zeum untouched for some reason.

[unJon]

Putting aside Moe's obvious, yet limited, fallibility-- how would it violate the Logos?

IIRC, Kel's first impression of sorcery is that it would violate the Logos. In TDTCB prologue when talking to the trapper and maybe again when he runs into the non-man. Would look up, but books elswhere.

[Borque]

Perhaps he wanted Zeum untouched for some reason.

Yes. I'm positive Zeum is where the few dozen survivors will go when all the Three Seas nations have been turned into a smoldering Sranc-infested wasteland in the aftermath of the second Apocalypse.

This will still leave Eänna open for the sequel series, The Third Apocalypse, when they end up fleeing from Zëum. By boat, probably.

Scott will need to draw some new maps for Apocalypse four and up though.

[Rhadamanth]

My thoughts exactly. I always wondered what happened in Zeum during the Apocalypse.