The Judging Eye V

[jurble]

Anyway... I just finished a reread of TJE and I think that the connection between Cleric and Nin'janjin is very clear. The Wight-in-the-Mountain talks about his love for the Inchoroi and how they betrayed them (the Nonmen) and immediately tells Cleric that he has also betrayed them. The connection between the two betrayals is, to me, pretty solid. It just fits so well with Cleric's identity both as a mystery and as a total badass.

I thought that whole rant about betrayal and love refers to the Norsirai humans the Nonmen took in, and who subsequently murdered all the Nonmen.

[delete this account pls]

I agree. Also, there's no real reason for there to be a skin-spy among the Skin Eaters, unless the speculation that Kellhus prepared them for Akka is true and the Consult either knew about it or was involved.

Interestingly, there was another Skin Eater, one of the Bitten, mentioned briefly, whose name I have forgotten, who was said to go into battle with "both bows strung." If there was to be a skin spy, I'd say it's him, given the rape-demon nature of skin-spies.

That guy would be a prime suspect I agree, except he gets killed off fairly early on. Kosoter wastes him for trying to rape Mimara.

For the record, I don't think Sarl is definitely, or even probably, a skin spy. I just think if there *is* a skin spy amongst the Skin-Eaters, he'd be the prime suspect.

[unJon]

This is random but I remember a few people suggesting that Sarl is a skin spy. It seems to me though that most of the skin spies that we've dealt with have been pretty undemonstrative or eccentric personality-wise. That is certainly not a way that anyone would describe Sarl.

I think I was the first to suggest it. Sarl is extremely eccentric, and the scene where he breaks the cup of ale struck me as similar to some scenes with other skin spies we have scene. I don't know how likely it is, but I think there is definitely enough hints that it is either a red herring or foreshadowing.

Here's what I'm feeling after reading it. She seems to have traveled to the Outside and experienced the essence of ... well, something compassionate, the text says. The God? Who knows? So, perhaps the "Gate" that she is guarding... is in fact the Chorae, and not the Topos. Both seem to be places where the Outside is very close to the onta, and both are perhaps gates to the Outside. An interesting connection, and if so, what do you think are the ramifications?

I don't think the chorae are the gates, given what chorae are and what their purpose is in the TTT glossary. I think it is a very interesting idea, but that it conflicts with TTT.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I thought that whole rant about betrayal and love refers to the Norsirai humans the Nonmen took in, and who subsequently murdered all the Nonmen.

Well that's one way to look at it. But would the Nonmen of that day have loved the Norsirai? Remember that Akka states that they were only there for a year, and even by that point the Nonmen were pretty ... out there, in terms of their mental stability.

I think it refers to the Inchoroi.

I think I was the first to suggest it. Sarl is extremely eccentric, and the scene where he breaks the cup of ale struck me as similar to some scenes with other skin spies we have scene. I don't know how likely it is, but I think there is definitely enough hints that it is either a red herring or foreshadowing.

I think Sarl could be a skin-spy, conceivably, but he's a lot more out of control than the only other skin-spies we've seen up close. I think it's a red herring.

I don't think the chorae are the gates, given what chorae are and what their purpose is in the TTT glossary. I think it is a very interesting idea, but that it conflicts with TTT.

Well, I agree, but on the other hand we know almost nothing about Chorae, or at least the principles behind their construction. Perhaps a connection to the Outside, or even to the God, is an integral part of how they work.

Also, if there isn't a gate of some sort in the Chorae, what do you think Mimara experienced?

[jurble]

I guess I'll post this here, since I found it hilarious, I recently turned a friend onto the series and :

Syd: Started reading Second Apocalypse stuff. Pretty good so far, like 100 pages into The Warrior Prophet. I think it's hilarious that every female character in this series so far has either been a whore or horribly sexually abused. Please tell me there will be tentacle rape before everything is said and done.

lol. I wish I were around for the "Is Bakker Sexist?" threads

[unJon]

Also, if there isn't a gate of some sort in the Chorae, what do you think Mimara experienced?

I'm sure we'll learn much more about it over the series. But everytime I think of a guess, it does sound like some sort of gate, because the scene reads as if she reaches through the Chorae to whatever is on the other side and then "inverts" it. :unsure:

[Kalbear]

Out of curiosity, how do we know we can trust The Judging Eye? Are we certain that it is what everyone says it is?

We can absolutely trust that it isn't what everyone (and by everyone, we mean Akka) says it is to Mimara. Akka admits to himself that he can't tell her exactly what it is because it would be too horrible - he can't bring himself to do so. And his explanation of it surprises himself - when he thinks about the ramifications that it can be used to discredit Kellhus.

My personal take on it is that it is pretty close to what Akka says, but its use has horrible ramifications to the user. And much like sorcerers speak with the mouth of God and Cishaurim sing with the song of God, people with TJE see with the eyes of God.

Just a guess though.

[lokisnow]

We can absolutely trust that it isn't what everyone (and by everyone, we mean Akka) says it is to Mimara. Akka admits to himself that he can't tell her exactly what it is because it would be too horrible - he can't bring himself to do so. And his explanation of it surprises himself - when he thinks about the ramifications that it can be used to discredit Kellhus.

My personal take on it is that it is pretty close to what Akka says, but its use has horrible ramifications to the user. And much like sorcerers speak with the mouth of God and Cishaurim sing with the song of God, people with TJE see with the eyes of God.

Just a guess though.

which makes me think that having an eye in the heart of the crazy dude may be something to keep in mind with the Judging Eye.

If sorcerer's speak with the mouth of God and the Cishaurim sing with the song of God, maybe people with the judging eye see with the Heart of God, or perhaps they see with the mouth of God. Be a good way to be horrible and fucked up, mixing and matching sight organs with other organs. ;) resulting in some horrible effect like our friend with the eyeball growing in his heart.

Regarding someone suggesting in the other thread that a whore's shell captures and imprisons souls that would otherwise be implanted in the whore as a baby, I wonder, is the No-God merely a whore's shell to the nth power? or in D&D it'd be like a level 60 whore's shell, or something. ;) the No God is the whore's shell for the whore, Earwa, and imprisons all souls within it, rather than allowing Earwa's children to be born. :D What are whore shells made of anyway? fragments of the carapace?

[Kalbear]

A whore's shell appears to be a very simple and cheap item to obtain that's made via easy magics (albeit illegally). I doubt very seriously that it would be made from the fragments of the carapace used to house the No-God; that would be significantly more valuable than chorae, and we know how valuable those are.

The idea is sound...somewhat. The troubling part to me is that the No-God didn't stop conception, it stopped people from birthing live children. Everyone was announced as stillborn. Thats' clearly not how the whore's shell works; it stops conception only. I don't remember whether people could get pregnant during the apocalypse or if it just killed all children it the womb and then stopped any future ones from developing. In either case, I don't think a whore's shell acts as an abortion.

[Rhadamanth]

It's funny that we focus on sorcerers as being damned but whores are too. I wonder if Esmi is still damned as well.

Be back here later, reading the Bakker and Women threads.

One thing that strikes me so far is Dylanfanatic's repeated mentions of Bakker's dislike of certainty and the hints that it might be important. If certainty is a crock of crap as Bakker has said, wouldn't his world and its foundations be subject to this?

[Rhadamanth]

From Dylanfanatic's blog:

"The Inchoroi are the flip side of the Inrithi and the Fanim. You could read them as a vision of the nihilistic implications of unrestrained desire. They are simply another dead end in the book's thematic labyrinth."

So the Inchies, Inrithi, and Fanim are dead ends. Are the Gods dead ends too? Is this Kellhus' purpose, to chart a path to a new world without these things?

[Paxter]

And much like sorcerers speak with the mouth of God and Cishaurim sing with the song of God, people with TJE see with the eyes of God.

Actually, if Kellhus' speculation is correct, then sorcerers speak with God's voice and see with God's eyes.

From Kellhus' lecture to Akka:

- The Many see the world from one set of eyes, and have forgotten the God's voice.

- But the Few see the world from many sets of eyes (the God's eyes), and remember some of the God's voice.

- Because they remember fragments of the God's voice, they can alter his creation.

- But because they remember merely fragments of the voice, the alterations they make are never as perfect as what God made

- As a result, when one of the Few looks at another sorcerer, they see the mark - a mark of imperfection.

- The Many can't see the mark, because they do not see the world from many sets of eyes.

One thing that strikes me so far is Dylanfanatic's repeated mentions of Bakker's dislike of certainty and the hints that it might be important. If certainty is a crock of crap as Bakker has said, wouldn't his world and its foundations be subject to this?

I think that the conflict between certainty and doubt has come through pretty strongly in Bakker's world and the series' storyline so far. For example:

- Kellhus (uses people's belief and lack of scepticism in his manipulations) vs. Akka (who abandons Kellhus when the seeds of doubt are sown by Cnauir)

- The God (who's voice is filled with such certainty that it can change creation) vs. No-God (plagued by doubts to the extent that it only speaks in questions, embedded with eleven chorae that dispel the "certainty" of sorcery)

- Sorcery (belief that, through words, you can change creation) vs. Chorae (doubt that, through words, you can change creation)

[Rhadamanth]

I wonder how close Kellhus has actually come to speaking with the God's voice in its entirety. His semantic meanings are undoubtedly better than other sorcerers, so it must be closer to God's creations and would be closer to perfection.

The only thing lacking would be the passion of God which is what the Cish use to do their work. Although perhaps Kellhus possesses some passion, it doesn't seem to be enough for anything useful. I wonder if that is one of the points of the Thousandfold Thought, to direct the passions of great numbers of people in order to work something huge. Combine with a perfect semantic pitch and you get... a new creation? I don't know.

- The God (who's voice is filled with such certainty that it can change creation) vs. No-God (plagued by doubts to the extent that it only speaks in questions, embedded with eleven chorae that dispel the "certainty" of sorcery)

- Sorcery (belief that, through words, you can change creation) vs. Chorae (doubt that, through words, you can change creation)

I like these ideas.

[jurble]

Two active Bakker threads is a bit much

[Rhadamanth]

I just figured we'd do as Kalbear suggested and move all the spoilerific discussions here.

[red snow]

ok, finally finished the Judging eye. Was expecting the final chapter to disappoint after all they praise surrounding it but I was still very impressed. I also enjoyed all the new POVs, Kelmomas being the favourite and Sorweel the least (although his final scenes suggest he has a much bigger role to play still). With regards to Kelmomas, I liked how Bakker had me thinking "The idiot twin is the genius and is the voice in Kelmomas's head" only to then kill the twin. Then, to screw with me, has the inside voice thank kelmomas for "killing me". No idea how that works but interesting none-the-less.

I was wondering whether the Dunyain have almost become a separate species, thanks to the intensive breeding scheme. The evidence is there in that the success rate of "hybrids" is low and there is a strong indication that Dunyain/humans are mules in the sense that Maithanet has no offspring. Time will tell if the others are infertile too. This would fit with Donkey/horses and other mules between closely related species.

Doubtless there are many, many questions raised throughout the series but for some reason these two have stuck with me the most. Any chance of a quick answer as I suspect with all the threads on the series it has been brought up already?

1) Any ideas who the non-man that fought Kellhus in PON was? I guess he was the same one who stole the face of the guard Achamian managed to turn at the start of PON. Motives?

2) When Inrau first met the consult did he really punch through a guy's chain-mailed chest with his finger? That whole scene was very trippy for me and the first sign that the series was going to be something special. Am I th eonly one who was expecting Inrau to turn up again later?

[Maithanet]

1) Any ideas who the non-man that fought Kellhus in PON was? I guess he was the same one who stole the face of the guard Achamian managed to turn at the start of PON. Motives?

2) When Inrau first met the consult did he really punch through a guy's chain-mailed chest with his finger? That whole scene was very trippy for me and the first sign that the series was going to be something special. Am I th eonly one who was expecting Inrau to turn up again later?

1. I think Bakker confirmed that was Mekeritrig.

1B. I don't remember who was responsible for that.

2. I agree the scene is a little trippy. I just assumed that he'd used sorcery on them, and that was all. Later it seems like that isn't the sort of thing a sorcerer could do, unless he just hit him with his hand, and used sorcery to punch a hole in him simultaneously. Which i suppose for an inexperienced person in great peril, it might be possible. I dunno, it seems more reminiscent of WoT sorcery than what happens in Bakkerverse.

Kalbear - Yeah, the whore's shell clearly does not have the same effect that the No-God did. The No-God caused stillbirths, but women could still get pregnant. That wouldn't be very valuable to a prostitute.

[Shryke]

1) Any ideas who the non-man that fought Kellhus in PON was? I guess he was the same one who stole the face of the guard Achamian managed to turn at the start of PON. Motives?

As I remember, that was Mekeritrig, the Non-man who Seswatha talks to when he's nailed to the walls of Daglish (or whatever that place was called). He also sets Seswatha free. He's an Erratic who was a leading member of the Consult during the Apocalypse.

He also was the one to remove the glamour from the Ark and lead the Mangaecca to it. The Mangaecca, of course, become the Consult.

As for his motives? He's an Erratic. Beyond acquiring memories, who the fuck knows?

2) When Inrau first met the consult did he really punch through a guy's chain-mailed chest with his finger? That whole scene was very trippy for me and the first sign that the series was going to be something special. Am I th eonly one who was expecting Inrau to turn up again later?

Yes, he used Sorcery.

And no, I always figured he was dead, dead.

[Jussi]

Amazon UK claims that book three of the Aspect Emperor, The Horns of Golgotterath, will be published in January 2012:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horns-Golgotterath-Aspect-Emperor-Book/dp/1841498319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264629616&sr=1-1

The gripping conclusion to the majestic Aspect-Emperor series.

[Durckad]

Amazon UK claims that book three of the Aspect Emperor, The Horns of Golgotterath, will be published in January 2012:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horns-Golgotterath-Aspect-Emperor-Book/dp/1841498319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264629616&sr=1-1

There's only one appropriate response for this:

Squee!

Oh and Amazon is notorious for making shit up, but squee! nonetheless.