The Judging Eye V

[Kalbear]

By the time of PoN, Aurang had long since learned sorcery. Do you have any evidence of the Inchoroi using remote control bodies in the backstory and not just slave creatures?

The Synthese is clearly not just an artifact of sorcery, and it was known to Mandate for thousands of years. I guess you're asking whether or not I have any evidence that they were around in Nonman times, and that's clearly no - but it seems a fairly common belief here that the Synthese is just a shell for inchies and the real control is far away.

Though, I suspect I'll get comments about how the souls of the damned and the demons are totally distinct categories, even though the Wight-in-the-Mountain apparently runs Cil-Aujas, possesses great power, hungers like a demon, and can take the souls of others

Okay, there you go with that 'takes the souls of others' bit.

Show me one place in the book where it even hints that this happens. Just once.

Witches can make whore's shells to prevent conception by trapping the soul of the child, and they can trap the souls of the dying to make Wathi dolls.

We have no idea how whore's shells work. That's a hypothesis that is likely wrong, by the way; we discussed that before. But think about this: it stops conception and does not cause a miscarriage.

Demons can later take the souls of the sorcerers who summon them. Zioz can take someone's soul even when they are alive, but it is unknown if he gets to keep it. Presumably, everything in the Outside (or at least everything worth mentioning) is able to overpower the soul of a lesser spirit, as long as a greater spirit doesn't intervene for the soul.

Trap does not mean the same thing as 'take'. It's not clear whether the soul is taken before or after death (though it seems clear from Zioz that his taking causes death). As to that presumption - it's a very, very large one. There are a lot of things in the Outside, and so far only one (Zioz) has demonstrated anything involving interaction with souls in the material world. No one else has. I'd argue that one is definitely not enough of a sample size.

As for the No-God:

"The soul that encounters Him, passes no further."

He was clearly having a very significant effect on souls. I think he was trapping them so that they couldn't pass on, and since he was in the World, he could get the uncontested first pickings, like witches who capture the last breath of a dying person don't have to worry about beings in the Outside who also want that soul.

Well, duh. No souls could pass to the Outside while the No-God was around. That was his whole point! That doesn't mean the No-God takes them or traps them or does anything with them; it means that the No-God closes the world from the Outside. Which is the Consult's stated goal!

Really? I must have forgotten that. In particular do you have any such examples from when the No-God wasn't in the World and doing things like speaking through Sranc mouths so that we know that it's really Wracu and Bashrag and not the No-God in them?

The Bashrag in TJE very clearly eminate a dread in the men that goes beyond it being fucking diesel. There's a story earlier about Wracu fighting the mandate and the fear that they created as well.

Gin'yursis, the Wight-in-the-Mountain who was a Gnostic sorcerer in life.

Achamian thinks that the last wouldn't have been vulnerable to a non-inverted Chorae, and that Seal thing makes me think that if some force didn't keep the Wight-in-the-Mountain in, he wouldn't stay in.

I think there is a good chance that the No-God is possessing a Tekne body inside the Carapace, allowing him to feel more at home in the World. Compare that to the Wight-in-the-Mountain's takeover of Cleric's body.

First off - there is no remote indication that Gin'yursis - who had no corporeal body, did not act like a Ciphrang, did not get summoned like one, was based on an existent nonman (no Ciphrang have been identified as a specific person, much less a nonman), showed the ability to possess (no other Ciphrang has), and no one ever referred to as a Ciphrang - was a Ciphrang. None.

Ciphrang, among other things, look fairly similar to each other. This is how everyone recognizes the Ciphrang heads on Kellhus' belt, for instance. The Wight in the Mountain looks nothing like one; he looks just like a nonman.

I think it's also a big mistake to conflate nonman metaphysics (especially around damnation) with man metaphysics.

But mostly I think you're hugely reaching here.

[Tears of Lys]

Why has Kellus allowed Moenghus (jr) to live and to have a position of power in his council?

/snip

We know that Kellhus sees value in progeny. This could include those acquired by adoption too. (Too bad he doesn't realize Esmenet's nurturing a viper - Kelmomas.)

I do wonder why Moenghus is thought of as being insane, though - at least by Kyutas, IIRC.

Edited for clarity.

[drl84]

We know that Kellhus sees value in progeny. This could include those acquired by adoption too. (Too bad he doesn't realize Esmenet's nurturing a viper - Kelmomas.)

I do wonder why Moenghus is thought of as being insane, though - at least by Kyutas, IIRC.

Edited for clarity.

Fear tactic, perhaps? You add not only danger to your own reputation, but increase twice-fold the character of your other commanding siblings? Increases moral also if you were serving under their banners and knew you had not only a God, a brilliant tactitian, a witch-leader, but also a MAD MAN fighter?

That or maybe it was just a warning to Sorweel? Or once again a fear tactic to make Sorweel bond closer to Kel? Offer a carrot in one hand; offer a whip in the other.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Kalbear, I applaud your efforts to set Nerdanel straight - I was going to type up a response to his latest nonsense but you've done it so well that I won't impugn your work by copying it.

Nerdanel - listen to Kalbear.

ETA:

We know that Kellhus sees value in progeny. This could include those acquired by adoption too. (Too bad he doesn't realize Esmenet's nurturing a viper - Kelmomas.)

I do wonder why Moenghus is thought of as being insane, though - at least by Kyutas, IIRC.

Edited for clarity.

My theory per the insanity thing is that Moenghus intentionally created this persona of a dangerous madman in order to survive. All of his siblings are little godlings who can see through your face and have extraordinary gifts - he's got to do something to survive.

Alternatively, one could propose that the same as above is true, except that it was an unintentional result of growing up with aforementioned god-siblings.

[Shryke]

Cnauir used the same method to screw up Kellhus' ability to read and manipulate him.

[Tears of Lys]

Makes sense to me!

:)

[red snow]

My theory per the insanity thing is that Moenghus intentionally created this persona of a dangerous madman in order to survive. All of his siblings are little godlings who can see through your face and have extraordinary gifts - he's got to do something to survive.

Alternatively, one could propose that the same as above is true, except that it was an unintentional result of growing up with aforementioned god-siblings.

That makes sense. If Moenghus had to grow up with those younger siblings around he would probably have to learn how to avoid being read by them and this may cause him to appear mad (or actually makes him a little crazy).

Shryke's pragmatic point of view also makes sense for Kellhus as does Maithanet's idea of keeping Moenghus around for a suicide mission. Keeping someone around for 20 years so that you can sacrifice one of your "own" or a suicide mission is probably good for moral and may spare his own kids. Then again I'm not entirely sure how much Kellhus cares for his own children other than having them as tools. If he's like Moenghus(sr) he maybe has more of a care for his progeny but they were full blooded Dunyain.

[Crescent_Hawk0]

I see this thread has 5 iterations. Does this mean the book is good or is it hilariously bad? The reason I'm asking is that I can get it for a good price and don't want to miss out on a good read.

[Maithanet]

Most of the people who post in The Judging Eye threads are fans of Bakker's work. If you're looking for something silly to tear into, this would likely be a very bad choice.

If you're interested in a dark epic fantasy, with themes of history, religion and philosophy, then I'd pick up The Darkness that Came Before (book one of the series). The villains are convincing, the battles are enjoyable and you'll probably learn something.

And welcome to the board!

[Kalbear]

Actually, tearing into Bakker's pretentiousness at times would be pretty fun. The "death came swirling down" is a good example, but there's plenty to lampoon.

Just like GRRM's fetish for food. :)

[Tears of Lys]

I see this thread has 5 iterations. Does this mean the book is good or is it hilariously bad? The reason I'm asking is that I can get it for a good price and don't want to miss out on a good read.

Well, most of us think it's pretty great, and the ones who think it's bad don't think it's "hilariously bad." Their dislike of certain aspects of it, I don't think would lend themselves to humor; i.e., the treatment of females.

The swirly death, though, is another matter.

[Nerdanel]

I wonder if "Death came swirling down" is meant to be more than just a nice-sounding repeating phrase... Do you think it's possible that it's code for damnation?

I don't want to write a long reply to previous points now as I'm afraid that the thread will be closed on me and I'm having some computer trouble due to which I'm currently forced to write on a keyboard with American layout. This makes writing annoying as I have to hunt and peck the punctuation. (In case you wonder, I had to boot from a live CD since that seems to put less strain on my dying power supply and the live CD doesn't appear to support other keyboard layouts. It's power supply shopping time!)

[elur]

So...does anyone think Lord Kosoter is really an entity that took over Geshrunni from The Darkness that comes before?

[Tears of Lys]

I wonder if "Death came swirling down" is meant to be more than just a nice-sounding repeating phrase... Do you think it's possible that it's code for damnation?

No, I don't.

[Borque]

So...does anyone think Lord Kosoter is really an entity that took over Geshrunni from The Darkness that comes before?

No.

[Nerdanel]

This is all very hypothetical, but I think Lord Kosoter is Kellhus's man, Soma is an agent of Esmenet's, Cleric is Mekeritrig, and there are no skin-spies in the company. If we REALLY want to go on a limb, I might speculate that Sutadra works for Moenghus Sr. (How do you get diaresis on the American keyboard?) and Pokwas is a Zeumi spy, but that's pretty much just guessing on the basis of the Rule of Funny. And since Sarl is crazy, he is particularly susceptible to the influences of various gods.

[Kalbear]

This is all very hypothetical, but I think Lord Kosoter is Kellhus's man, Soma is an agent of Esmenet's, Cleric is Mekeritrig, and there are no skin-spies in the company. If we REALLY want to go on a limb, I might speculate that Sutadra works for Moenghus Sr. (How do you get diaresis on the American keyboard?) and Pokwas is a Zeumi spy, but that's pretty much just guessing on the basis of the Rule of Funny. And since Sarl is crazy, he is particularly susceptible to the influences of various gods.

You must be the funnest person to play mafia with, ever.

[Crescent_Hawk0]

Well, most of us think it's pretty great, and the ones who think it's bad don't think it's "hilariously bad." Their dislike of certain aspects of it, I don't think would lend themselves to humor; i.e., the treatment of females.

The swirly death, though, is another matter.

The reason I asked that way was that I'm following the "Thongor and his mighty thews" thread also and I love it.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

The "death came swirling down" line is an homage to Homer, whose descriptions of battle are closely followed by Bakker. The one line epithets, the sudden appearance of named men only to die, the phrase itself... it's not in the Iliad as is, I don't think, but a quick search yields some pretty similar turns of phrase.

The point of the spear went through the bone into

the bladder, and death came upon him as he cried aloud and fell

forward on his knees.

They

threw at the same moment, and Sarpedon struck his foe in the

middle of his throat; the spear went right through, and the

darkness of death fell upon his eyes.

His teeth were all of them

knocked out and the blood came gushing in a stream from both his

eyes; it also came gurgling up from his mouth and nostrils, and

the darkness of death enfolded him round about.

whereon he fell headlong to the ground and the

pangs of death took hold upon him.

That's out of the first 12 books or so, but it's enough examples, I think. So, not exactly the same, but similar. It's what I'll call a Homeric affectation, or so it seems to me.

Edited: found a better example

[koudoulis]

.......

cool!