The Judging Eye V

[Kalbear]

That's a good summary, Maithanet. I still think that the Consult has shown amazingly poor tactical skill now and then (especially if you look at their actual plans) but it's possible that they were worried about ending things sooner rather than later. It's hard for me to imagine that the remnants of humanity could have rallied and actually fought against Golgotterath in any capacity, but it's possible that they could have - or that the Consult thought they could have.

[Piper]

In regard to Cnaiur's leadership abilities, I believe he led the Scylvendi to their crushing defeat of the Fanim at Zirkirta( I think it is called that), which is one reason why he was put forward as a leader of the Holy War. He supposedly knew the Fanim and had defeated them before. His failure at Anwurat was mainly due to his lapses in concentration as someone else pointed out. His failure at holding Conphas is due to his insanity as well as Conphas' superior knowledge of the field i.e. the secret tunnels out. Cnaiur was a great general but Kellhus completely messed him up and his defeats were usually the result of that.

Per the glossary in TTT, the Sclyvendi were lead at Zirkirta by Yursut urs Muknai; presumably Cnaiur lead the Utemont contigent, though.

[Octavian West]

I think I'm going to have to agree with Kal on this one. In the glossary it says that it was the years of attrition that forced him(No-God) to intercede at the Battle of Mengedda. It sounds like it was his call to show up and then when he gets there he throws his own forces around and starts asking questions instead of wreaking s*#t. But maybe it wasn't his call to intercede maybe it was the Consult who let him go, which really does make them look rather stupid.

"Um guys, this isn't going to well. Let's release Noey now and send him out to toss Sranc around and ask questions"

Or maybe they didn't know what he would do when sent out, which makes them look even more stupid.

"Um guys, this isn't going to good"

"No, it isn't. But we can release Noey and see where that gets us"

"Do you know what he is going to do?"

"Not really, do you?"

"Nope, but it can't be any worst. Let him go"

Or we can go back to it being the No-God who made the call. In that case we have a general who decides that take the field himself because he knows that he is losing troops and it is imperative that they end this. Yet when he arrives he does nothing against the enemy but get killed.

No smiting

No killer lightning

No making people eye bleed

No tellng his forces to reform the line or to outflank them

Only;

WHAT DO YOU SEE?

[Relic]

In the glossary it says that it was the years of attrition that forced him(No-God) to intercede at the Battle of Mengedda.

Key word there is "forced".

[Octavian West]

Key word there is "forced".

I'm not knocking his decision to take the field. What am saying is what was up with his actions once he did.

He is smart enough to know that he must intercede because he is running low on troops. Yet when he gets there is tosses said troops about and instead of taking direct action against the enemy, he engages in an Q&A with them.

Or if it was the Consult who released him they either gave him some horrible orders or let him go without knowing what he would do. Either way it makes them look pretty stupid.

[Tears of Lys]

The way I think of the No-God is like a force of nature that may be developing a consciousness. What kind of leader asks "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" and some of the other things that we've only heard through Kellhus and Akka/Seswatha? It seems to be a chaotic power that the Consult have been able to channel to a certain extent. As such, I don't believe it's directing anything.

[Rhadamanth]

You are right Piper. Cnaiur led the Utemot at Zirkirta.

I agree with Tears of Lys. The No-God gave the Sranc and the others some sort of unity which made them fight better but I doubt he did it consciously. He wasn't even sure what he is.

[Curethan]

Fairly sure the no-god controls/inhabits the sranc et al (according to the glossary) making them even more formidable than usual.

Aurang is named as the the consult's general. So I think we can surmise that the strategy to crush the weakling humans comes from Aurang and the tactical decision to take the field was No-god's.

As for the constant 'who am I?, What do I look like, Where is the bong...' that the no-god keeps on with - I don't think it ever stops, he's dead fer crissake and still continues with it - so I don't regard that as his battle tactics per se.

Now we don't know the motivation for the consult venturing from their fastness. Could be as I said above and they just can't stay home when there's people need raping. Could be they were trying to close the outside of before one of the last inchies died of space-syphilis. It's easy to point to this as evidence of incompetance with the benefit of hindsight and sketchy knowledge about their real position. And who said they even knew seswatha had the heron spear, much less the knowledge required to use it? That whole shebang really would have required their betrayal by one of their own. *points in the direction of mekeratrig*

re: Richard Rahl = Kellhus....

this is arse bleedingly bad. Dick Roll is a character from an author who believes that good and evil are defined absolutes with real values (a belief Nerdanal shares iirc, though I in no way wish to accuse Nerdanel of sharing his definitions) and Dickyboy is his version of goodness personified. Kellhus on the other hand is a fairly good example of the concept of immorality. I think the assertion that people who like one depiction would also like the other is based on the personal perception that they both fail in their intended purposes and instead represent some tyranical epitome of evil.

As someone who refutes the existence of good and evil beyond the way that humans define their own actions (a stoat is not evil until I judge it so) I think that Kellhus is a kickass character and neither good nor evil, but the actions he takes to achieve his objectives largely fall into the latter character making him a true antihero. Dick Roll, however, is a moral absolutism, a depiction of many ideals that sicken me. I resent being forced to defend against this 'if u like x then u like y' scenario and hope that TG's crappy alter ego stays away from this thread in future.

;)

[jurble]

http://www.explosm.net/comics/1137/

rofl, I just saw this on a Digg comment, and couldn't help but think Mekeritig!

[Maithanet]

I'm struck by how little exposure we as readers have had to the Consult this deep into the story. And we really got nowhere further in TJE than we were at the end of TTT other than seeing a skin-spy.

I mean, we know about the skin-spies, we know Aurang pretty well and we've met Aurax once. But we don't really have much beyond speculation about how things really work up North. We know about this Shae guy, but really just that he exists. Is he the top dog? I can't imagine Aurang taking orders from too many people. How many members does the Consult really have? We've seen them described as a "cabal," but what kind of size does that really imply?

How can we tell Aurax and Aurang apart? Is Aurax the rape-and-pillage guy we see at the end of TWP, and Aurang the one we see the rest of the time?

[gladius]

yes

edit: about the size

2 aliens

the number of human sorcerers is probably similar to the number of Mandate sorcerers before the holy war.

a few dozen erratics (the number is constantly changing, I guess)

[Octavian West]

It doesn't matter what the reason was for the No-God to show up at the battle or even why the Consult gave battle in the first place. For all we know, they had sound reasons for doing so. So that is not my argument.

What I am saying is that once the Consult/No-God made the decision to have the No-God intercede and when he actually showed up, he did nothing. He tossed some Sranc around and asks some questions, that while very deep and makes ponder the world as he knows it, isn't very effective when you are trying to win a battle.

So I really don't see how that doesn't make the Consult stupid. I doubt they told the No-God to engage in friendly fire and far out question asking.

Now taking that in mind and IF it was the Consult's call to release him for what reasons (justified or not) they did so without knowing what he would do exactly. I don't know, to me that doesn't sound too smart.

Or as the glossary suggests, it was The No-God's decision to show up. I actually agree with Tears of Lys and Rhad on the No-God. But my personal thoughts on the matter gives ground to the actual facts of the matter.

'Celmomas and his Second Ordeal were destroyed on the Fields of Eleneot in 2146. The Heron Spear, which could not be used because the No-God refused to give battle, was lost.'

'According to extant accounts, not once did the No-God expose himself to battleduring this time.'

Even though it goes kind of goes against how I view the No-God thoses are the facts we are given in the books and it makes the No-God seem aware to some extent. He understands that attrition has taken his toll so he must do a Sauron ala Last Alliance of Elves and Men. Which is show up and Do Work. But he doesn't, his presence freaks the humans out, but he doesn't do anything active against enemy forces.

So at that battle his incompetence, was most costly. Either way, the Consult/No-God are not to bright.

[Maithanet]

So at that battle his incompetence, was most costly. Either way, the Consult/No-God are not to bright.

I have never read anyone argue that the No-God was bright. If anything, it barely even seems aware of much of anything.

I agree, we don't know if the Consult or the No-God decided to give battle at Mengadda. Either way, its safe to assume that the Consult didn't have complete control over the No-God, or he likely would have been a lot more effective. Still, without the Heron Spear, I doubt it would have made any difference. With the human armies transfixed by the No-God's TerrorAttack, it's only a matter of time before the No-God moves closer and starts unleashing the whirlwind on the armies directly. End of battle.

[lokisnow]

Disadvantages of retreating:

Additionally, the war may have gone on long enough (ten years) that the not-too-bright-or-fast-responding gods have finally noticed that a genocide is taking place among the humans. At this point the consult may be aware that the Gods are going to start intervening for the humans, making their chances of achieving the impossible more and more likely. A retreat and hiding for thirty more years gives the gods and humans a lot of time to launch a THIRD Great Investiture. Eliminating the humans means also eliminating the Gods, and closing the world to the outside means shutting the Gods out as well.

[Nerdanel]

Re: the No-God at Mengedda

I DO happen to think that the No-God is intelligent.

This is the beginning of Achamian's dream about Mengedda:

The distances writhed, twisted with maggot-white forms dressed in human skins - with Sranc, shrieking Sranc, thousands upon thousands of them, clawing black blood from their skin, gouging themselves blind. Blind!

And this is Achamian escaping from the Scarled Spires:

He encountered a cohort of Javreh. Their frantic bolts were winked into ash by the play of lights before him. Then they were screaming, clawing at eyes that had become burning coals.

I think just as Achamian blinded the Javreh, Seswatha blinded with Gnosis the entire gazillion Sranc just before the dream started, and that in turn blinded the No-God by proxy. I think the No-God was seeing through the eyes of the Sranc and Seswatha's tactic came to him as a complete surprise that neutralized his combat efficiency and left him vulnerable to the Heron Spear.

Re: Morality

I'm not a moral relativist. I believe in good and evil as eternal abstractions that exist much like mathematics does. I think good and evil apply to actions and when people are good or evil that's just a shorthand for saying that they are predisposed to good or evil actions.

Goodkind, on the other hand has Good and Evil acting like opposing sports teams so that the morality of an action is determined by who does it... Thus the designated heroes can kill and torture all they want, but it's all okay and righteous since they are the good guys...

The thing about Kellhus and Richard is that their personal moralities are nearly identical, but Goodkind thinks Richard is the epitome and goodness and heroism while Bakker doesn't show Kellhus as such. Indeed, I think Kellhus is the main villain of PoN and about as close to pure evil as you can get in a human. By writing about Kellhus, I think Bakker is making a critique on Objectivism by exposing during the course of the story the ugliness and contradictions that underlie its rhetoric. I think Kellhus's evil will eventually be exposed beyond even the Goodkind fanboys' ability to rationalize away.

By the way, I'm starting to think that the God of Eärwa is evil.

Re: Conspiracy theories

Bakker has said that Eärwa is an inherently meaningful world in a contrast to our world. In our world, the likes of Illuminati don't really exist but people want to believe in them anyway because having a plan behind history, no matter how nefarious, is more comforting than no plan at all. Meanwhile in the inherently meaningful world of Eärwa the Consult is really there.

Thus when strange coincidences happen in Eärwa, it's very likely that someone planned them. The question then becomes: Who and why?

[Maithanet]

Re: the No-God at Mengedda

I DO happen to think that the No-God is intelligent.

I think just as Achamian blinded the Javreh, Seswatha blinded with Gnosis the entire gazillion Sranc just before the dream started, and that in turn blinded the No-God by proxy. I think the No-God was seeing through the eyes of the Sranc and Seswatha's tactic came to him as a complete surprise that neutralized his combat efficiency and left him vulnerable to the Heron Spear.

I think this is really reaching. Let's say the No-God is intelligent, and it just took the field in a whirlwind of death. Seswatha renders him blind by blinding all the sranc (I think blinding an entire vast army is beyond his ability, but I'll admit its possible). So the No-God, who previously knew where everyone was, and must still know where the sranc are (he's still controlling them) stops. And asks WHAT DO YOU SEE? I CANNOT SEE. WHAT DO YOU SEE? Does that strike you as an intelligent move?

If I'm in a tank, and I'm in an open battlefield, and someone knocks out all my sensors, the last thing I'm going to do is just stop. It is makes you far more vulnerable than you otherwise would be. It's not like an army as a whole can move quickly. All the No-God needs to do is get near the human armies, and the whirlwind will kill them all.

The No-God strikes me as a force of nature controlled by an infant. Barely comprehending what and where it is, but destructive just by existing.

I'm curious to hear what evidence you are basing your No-God-Is-Intelligent theory on.

[Curethan]

Re: Morality

I'm not a moral relativist. I believe in good and evil as eternal abstractions that exist much like mathematics does. I think good and evil apply to actions and when people are good or evil that's just a shorthand for saying that they are predisposed to good or evil actions.

Goodkind, on the other hand has Good and Evil acting like opposing sports teams so that the morality of an action is determined by who does it... Thus the designated heroes can kill and torture all they want, but it's all okay and righteous since they are the good guys...

Lol, seems like you both hold objectivist positions to me. Its your concepts of good and evil that are relativistic to each other.

Edit: didn't mean to say objectivist! meant absolutism but thats still probably hyperbole. Leaving the post the same so as not to make subsequent posts unintelligable.

[Nerdanel]

Do not confuse the words "objective" and "Objectivist". The two don't have anything to do with each other. "Objectivism" is called that for the same reason the Dûnyain are calling their philosophy the Truth - as a rhetorical trick. Both philosophies make a big deal about rationality and logic but have a strict dogma that may not be questioned. Objectivism is very inaccurately named indeed, since it is all about agreeing with and idolizing Ayn Rand.

I am most definitely not an Objectivist. I think good and evil are highly abstract notions that are the same everywhere in the universe in their abstract form yet highly situation-dependent in their concrete form. More accurately, if we gave a complete concrete description of good and evil for all places, times, and thinking species, it would be ridiculously long and full of exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions - far too complex to ever be actually written in real life, let alone be written without errors arising from biases, faulty logic, and plain not considering everything.

[Rhadamanth]

Additionally, the war may have gone on long enough (ten years) that the not-too-bright-or-fast-responding gods have finally noticed that a genocide is taking place among the humans. At this point the consult may be aware that the Gods are going to start intervening for the humans, making their chances of achieving the impossible more and more likely. A retreat and hiding for thirty more years gives the gods and humans a lot of time to launch a THIRD Great Investiture. Eliminating the humans means also eliminating the Gods, and closing the world to the outside means shutting the Gods out as well.

Hmmm... this sounds like something I said but where are the quotes? Just kidding lockesnow, at least I know someone else is thinking along these lines as well. Maybe Kellhus or Maithanet was lying when he said the Gods were blind to the No-God, but I can't think why they wouldn't notice something is wrong when the No-God caused all those still births. Yatwer at least should have, isn't she the God of Fertility?

[lokisnow]

Hmmm... this sounds like something I said but where are the quotes? Just kidding lockesnow, at least I know someone else is thinking along these lines as well. Maybe Kellhus or Maithanet was lying when he said the Gods were blind to the No-God, but I can't think why they wouldn't notice something is wrong when the No-God caused all those still births. Yatwer at least should have, isn't she the God of Fertility?

When reading a Bakker thread I've found its best to respond to one page at a time (and I don't think the multiquote function works if you go to another page), your post was at the top of the next page and I didn't see it because I was responding to a post from the previous page. Then when I went back to read the posts between my post and where I stopped reading, yours was the very next one, I thought, "cool, someone else had the same thought I did."

I do think that fear of "The Great Investiture III" may have prompted the consult to sweep through the human lands knocking out their armies, they've got experience with waiting out an enemy for a decade or two, and they may find it particularly bad.

It's also worth combining the fear of another great investiture with the idea that the no god began as an 'infant' so to speak, and as it matures NoGod grows more unruly, petulant and certain he doesn't want to listen to his parents. After ten years, NoGod is nearing its teenage years, and the Inchoroi are scared out of their equivalent of skulls as to what is going to happen to them when the No-God reaches puberty and starts getting horny.

Even rape demons don't want to get fucked by a giant carapace.