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Ski the Swift

The Judging Eye V

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Ah, sorry - I meant that the Outside as it related to Earwax has immutable rules.

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Here are some of the passages Kalb is referring to:

“Sometimes,” Mimara persisted, “when I glimpse him [incariol] in the corner of my eye…”

[...]

“… he seems like something monstrous, a shambling wreck, black and rotted and… and…”

[...]

“And it’s like you can taste his evil.” he [Achamian] heard himself say. [...]

[Achamian:] “And it’s more than just the Nonman, isn’t it? [...] Sometimes… Sometimes I look this way as well, don’t I?”

“So you see the same?” she blurted.

[...]

[Achamian, on the Judging Eye:] “It means that you don’t simply apprehend the Mark of sorcery, you see the sin as well…”.

— TJE, p. 335–6

That page also contains one of the most interesting and puzzling exchanges:

“[...] It’s just that…”

“That what?”

“Your stepfather… Kellhus.”

He had improvised this, not willing to stray too far into the truth. [...]

We have no idea what Akka actually wanted to say.

Then, back to Kal’s point:

“What about him?”

“He says the Old Law has been revoked, that Men are at long last read for the New.[...] Think,” he continued, “If sorcery is no longer abomination, then…” [...] “Then why would you see it as such?”

[...]

[Mimi:] “And now you’re saying,” [...] “that I’m kind of [...] proof of my stepfather’s… falsity?”

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Just how many people beliefs do we think that Kellhus has actually changed? Overall I don't think that it is a lot of people.

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Thanks for posting those. Damn, that really does seem to imply Kellhus is acting as a false prophet, at least as far as his claim to have re-written the meaning of scripture. He could still have a sincere desire to destroy the Consult though.

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I think he does really want to destroy the Consult, and does see himself as a Prophet. I'd argue that he's a "broken" dunyain at this point - his mental and investigative skills are as strong as ever (along with his sorcery), but there's a massive false premise at the heart of his thinking, that he's come to accept via his experiences in the Holy War for reasons that aren't rational.

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Wait, if the God exists, and all souls are fragments of the God, then by dying, people rejoin with the God (unless the God runs out eventually). What if a massive amount of deaths all believing the same thing will change the God itself. I read up earlier about a similar idea, but not sure if the dude touched on rejoining with the God. Kellhus needs millions of people to die, not so that their deaths effect the Outside, or their beliefs, but so that he can become a Prophet, and once that happens, Kellhus thinks it will retroactively make all of his pronunciations true, because he thinks that which comes after can cause that which comes before. Therefore, everyone who was damned, is damned right now, still. But Kellhus maybe believes the God itself can be altered, through the mass rejoining of Zaudunyani to the Ur-Soul.

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I’m still not convinced we need such a massive conspiracy to explain Kellhus’s behaviour.

We know that he deliberately misleads people. We have a (somewhat one-sided) dialogue of him with the God about that, in TTT:

It seemed he could hear someone shrieking his name through frozen forest arcades.

“Kellhus? Kellhus?”

[...]

“I now you can hear me,” he said to the world, dark and sacred. “I know that you listen.”

A sourceless wind pulled the grasses into streamers, drawing them to the southest, Against the constellations, dead branches clacked and creaked without rhythm.

“What was I to do?” he replied. “They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard… they trust to you.”

The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the past hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.

He tasted the sea on the air.

“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?

[...]

“No,” he said. “I cannot.”

(Note how insane this is. He actually converses with world, and the world answers. And his one-ness with the world is far beyond Dunyain skills. He hears maggots hissing, for crying out loud!)

So we as readers are already completely sure that Kellhus lies, and he (at least to himself and the god) assumes that he lies for a higher purpose. And the god seems to be cool with it.

(Of course, since we are in Kelly’s POV, it may all just be his imagination. Moe would argue that.)

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Of course, if we're to believe that Kellhus has been in the Outside (at least the Hell bit) then there's no reason that he has to construct some sort of formula whereby belief in Earwa erases damnation in the Outside.

He can just go there, alter the part of the soul conveyer mechanism that diverts certain values of souls into damnation-ville and that's his job done. He just needs a nice big juicy topos first.

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It occurs to me that we believe that Kellhus has been to the Outside because he's swinging a couple of demon heads from his tool belt. Is this proof? Couldn't he have acquired these from the big battle wherein at least one demon was called down by one of the Scarlet Spires? (sorry for the lack of names, etc., I'm distracted by actual work right now and can't give this my undivided attention.)

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Yeah, the origins of those Ciphrangs are a mystery. Also, Gods and Demonlings can't die apparently? They can only be sent back to the Outside? Would make sense if they were actually just larger chunks of the Ur-Soul.

And that reminds me, from the text, it seems like Nilnamesh was the hardest nation for Kellhus to conquer. Why? Everything else just seemed to lie over, but Nilnamesh didn't.

On the nature of religion:

1. Tuskism - There are many Gods, and bunch of demons, and they're all douchebags. Gods are definitely real, at least Yatwer is. Possibly they are just powerful demons, according to Inchoroi and Fanimry.

2. Inrithism - There are many Gods, but the Gods are just larger chunks of souls, and they along with the souls of humanity, all form the Ur-Soul, which is "The God".

3. Fanimry - The many Gods are all demons unworthy of worship, and there is only one Solitary God.

Is the Solitary God of Fanimry equivalent to the "The God" of Inrithism? Does The God or the Solitary God even exist?

I think, if Tsurumah is resurrected, the Fanim will flock to him at least, if only because he seems awfully like the Solitary God in that:

1. He's solitary.

2. He stands apart from the Gods of the Tusk.

Moreover, the No-God speaks to Kellhus, what if he spoke to Fane? What if the No-God is the god of Fanimry? The Consult wouldn't know, they're the slaves of the No-God, they made him, but he is way beyond them.

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Could somebody be so kind as to refresh my memory about something? I can't recall whether the No-God was heard by Achamian in one of his Seswatha dreams. I thought he was, but I'm not sure.

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We believe that Kellhus has been to the outside because of the demon heads and because Akka heard rumors of him going there. That's about it.

Fanim believe that the god of Inri is the same solitary God of Fanim (though worshipped improperly) but all the subgods are demons in disguise.

I'm almost certain that Fanimry is the least likely to flock to a nihilistic god of destruction and death. They believe that their god is unique AND that their god is loving.

And yes, Akka's heard the No-God several times in his Seswatha dreams.

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Could somebody be so kind as to refresh my memory about something? I can't recall whether the No-God was heard by Achamian in one of his Seswatha dreams. I thought he was, but I'm not sure.

Yes - in the dream he has where the No-God is slain, before the No-God is slain we hear it speak through the voices of the Sranc.

Fanim believe that the god of Inri is the same solitary God of Fanim (though worshipped improperly) but all the subgods are demons in disguise.

That would probably be fitting with the Non-men view of the gods and demons as "agencies" in the Outside. My guess is that there really isn't a hard-line division between "gods" and "demons" - it's just that ending up with a "god" probably means a more pleasant eternity than ending up the plaything of something like a ciphrang.

One question - how would someone actually -go- to the Outside?

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One question - how would someone actually -go- to the Outside?

3 possibilities:

- a topos

- since it's possible to summon a demon from the outside, it's probably possible to use a reverse spell to send a human to the outside.

- death

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Presumably through a Topoi of some kind, though it's also possible that the same way that you can summon a demon you could summon yourself back, or possibly make a deal with a demon.

And maybe that's why the Consult need to stop damnation and the connection with the Outside - because they basically would otherwise pollute the world too much with horrible congress Topoi spots that would fuck them up if they hung out too much. Still, I'm going with the Happy Ent idea - that the inchies are just monumentally stupid fuckups who were sent to Earwax to be gotten rid of, while the rest of the inchies do sensible things like not have sex with body cavities.

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3 possibilities:

- a topos

- since it's possible to summon a demon from the outside, it's probably possible to use a reverse spell to send a human to the outside.

- death

Oh, I know one more.

I assume he just teleports there. In fact, I believe the transposition spell of his invention works by travelling through the Outside. All is connected, souls are merely pinpricks… so to teleport, you momentarily lose your soul’s sense of here and manifest somewhere else. Easy-peasy. To go to the Outside, you just have to figure out a way of jumping off the train mid-way.

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A more plausible explanation given Bakker's world and mythos is that you have to defile some woman in unspeakable congress.

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Fanim believe that the god of Inri is the same solitary God of Fanim (though worshipped improperly) but all the subgods are demons in disguise.

I'm almost certain that Fanimry is the least likely to flock to a nihilistic god of destruction and death. They believe that their god is unique AND that their god is loving.

How are you so certain the No-God is evil? Dude just seemed pretty confused to me. I mean, if someone would just answer his questions. I still don't understand how the No-God uses his powers selectively, it doesn't seem possible considering he doesn't seem to know what he is. Either his powers are not selective, or there is some other mechanism that prevents Scylvendi from having stillborn children.

Edit: idea - remember that dream Akka had where the No-God didn't die?

What if the No-God is a giant Schroedinger's Cat? Hence the nimil sarcophagus, he's completely unobservable - even to himself. He both died, and didn't die.

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I didn't say that the no-god is evil. But he is a god of destruction and death (that's why the Sclvendi think he's the bees knees, after all), he is able to mind-control the various Tekne creations and turn them all into an effective fighting force, and in general he's a bit of a dick, what with the removing all the baby making thing. He might be doing it unintentionally, but that just means he's an incompetent god of death and destruction - which would make perfect sense, given that it's made by the ultimate tossers in terms of competency in the Inchoroi.

In any case, the Fanim don't really buy that the God is one that will actively kill everyone by ripping their wombs out, and they also wouldn't believe in a god that calls itself the no-god. Their god is more loving, more general, and above all else far more self-confident and self-assured. "Who am I?" I mean, seriously, what kind of self-respecting anthropomorphic ur-soul asks that? What a douche.

And the Sclvendi didn't have kids either. No one did. They were just totally cool about it, because their kids grow up to be chavs or something.

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