The Judging Eye V

[Happy Ent]

Well, unless Scott has made a mistake, either Akka is seriously confused in TTT, or Inrau gets some help. And Onkis does seem to be a good candidate.

Hm… maybe.

I don’t like the idea that gods have that kind of agency in Bakkerverse. But this may be a good counterexample. Still, I think I will continue to let myself be ruled by me previous conceptions and just go with the surface reading of Inrau remembering his schooling.

[red snow]

I think it might have been part of Scylvendi culture before the first apacalopse their culture hasn't changed much if at all. Also the worshipped the No God so them and the Consult were both allies, but fore different reasons.

This raises another interesting question though, seeing as the Scylvendi are not part of the New Empire, I wonder if the Consult have established any contacts with them, seeing as they both want to ressurect the No God, and seeing as the Scylvendi might be usefull in attacking Kelhus.

I was assuming that the Scylvendi were essentially neutered after the battle of Kiyuth, otherwise I would have expected Kellhus to do something about them. Afterall it was a Scylvendi who was his greatest foe in terms of resistance. You would think after 19 years there would be a new generation of male syclvendi looking for vengeance. If Cnaiur taught his sons about the Dunyain (and if they weren't killed for being Cnaiur's sons) they could prove to be a problem down the line.

The other important point is that Cnaiur was last seen with the Consult/skin spies. Who knows what kind of shit he's been involved in over the course of two decades. He may have finally disowned his people but if the Consult decide to make use of the Scylvendi then sending Cnaiur back as a prophet of the no-god's resurrection would be a good way to win the Scylvendi over.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Hm… maybe.

I don’t like the idea that gods have that kind of agency in Bakkerverse. But this may be a good counterexample. Still, I think I will continue to let myself be ruled by me previous conceptions and just go with the surface reading of Inrau remembering his schooling.

But TJE shows us that the gods do have that kind of agency. Yatwer is the only one we see in TJE, but that doesn't mean she's the only one who is actually active.

Edit re: Scylvendi - I admit that I wondered about this too. The greatest foes of the Nansurium, the people who brought down Cenai and Kyrenea... you'd think that there would be some concern about them, especially considering the lust for revenge that the new generation very likely has.

However, that being said, Kiyuth obliterated the Scylvendi as a powerful military force in terms of numbers, and Conphas' defeat of their Chorae bowmen and subsequent control of the field probably means that the Scylvendi no longer have enough Chorae to fight a set-piece battle against a force that includes Schoolmen.

A final note... in TJE, after the death of Yatwer's emissary, Esmi wants to fortify the Andiamine Heights, and she mentions that a Column should be recalled. So, there are still some powerful elements of the main armed forces present in the Three Seas.

[Darzin]

However, that being said, Kiyuth obliterated the Scylvendi as a powerful military force in terms of numbers, and Conphas' defeat of their Chorae bowmen and subsequent control of the field probably means that the Scylvendi no longer have enough Chorae to fight a set-piece battle against a force that includes Schoolmen.

Hadn't thought about the Chorae, maybe the Consult could provide them with new ones if they had to. Also perhaps the New Empire simply has enough resources to properly gaurd the border. I'll be surprised if we don't see a Scylvendi army on the side of the Consult by the end of the trilogy.

[unJon]

Anyway, what's the deal with the clear homophobism exhibited by the Utemot towards Cnaiur. You'd think the Scylvendi would be as sexually liberated as their friends in the Consult.

You are confusing cause and effect. Being an alien rape demon causes you to want to close the world. Wanting to close the world does not cause you to be an alien rape demon.

Hm… maybe.

I don’t like the idea that gods have that kind of agency in Bakkerverse. But this may be a good counterexample.

As pointed out, TJE has other counterexamples. Also see the non-man talk of "agencies" of the Outside. ;)

The other important point is that Cnaiur was last seen with the Consult/skin spies. Who knows what kind of shit he's been involved in over the course of two decades. He may have finally disowned his people but if the Consult decide to make use of the Scylvendi then sending Cnaiur back as a prophet of the no-god's resurrection would be a good way to win the Scylvendi over.

Cnaiur is dead. Get over it.

[jurble]

what evidence is that that Cnaiur is dead? Did I miss something?

[Sheep the Evicted]

The only other thing i can think of is that people who have even basic training in the gnosis are programmed to go ape-shit when they see genuine consult members. I don't think any other gnostics have met real consult members outside of the mimics, which i see more as weapons.

Not adding much to this thread except to say this would be awesome.

[drl84]

what evidence is that that Cnaiur is dead? Did I miss something?

He cuts his own throat at the end of TTT

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

He cuts his own throat at the end of TTT

Technically, he gives himself a swazond on his throat, and it is shown as such; it is entirely possible that he cut himself shallowly enough to avoid death by exsanguination.

However, I believe his story arc came to a close with that final kill and swazond, and that he is dead. That being said, the text never specifically states that he dies. It's a bit of Syrio Forel situation, where it seems obvious that he's dead and yet there exists room to wiggle a bit.

[Paxter]

what evidence is that that Cnaiur is dead? Did I miss something?

There is confirmation in TJE's "What has come before":

But he made one mistake. He had allowed Cnaiur urs Skiotha, a Scylvendi chieftan who had accompanied him on his trek to the Three Seas, to learn too much of his true nature. Before his death, the barbarian revealed these truths to Drusas Achamian, who had harboured heartbreaking suspicions of his own.

[Ski the Swift]

There is confirmation in TJE's "What has come before":

That is based on Akka's thoughts and beliefs though, not on actual facts.

[Paxter]

That is based on Akka's thoughts and beliefs though, not on actual facts.

Yeah, I should have qualified my earlier post by stating that the "What has come before" probably has certain subjective elements embedded within it (e.g. "and go mad"). But I still think that the comment about Cnaiur's death is true.

As to whether the synopsis is predicated on Akka's thoughts and beliefs, I am not so sure. Is there some textual evidence to support that Swiftie?

[red snow]

Yeah, I should have qualified my earlier post by stating that the "What has come before" probably has certain subjective elements embedded within it (e.g. "and go mad"). But I still think that the comment about Cnaiur's death is true.

As to whether the synopsis is predicated on Akka's thoughts and beliefs, I am not so sure. Is there some textual evidence to support that Swiftie?

That's an embarassing miss-read for me if Cnaiur is dead! I was fairly sure we last saw him wandering off with skin-eaters (although thinking about it they may have all been killed by Kellhus). I better re-read that segment for more clarity. I'd hope his death was clear enough to understand without having to read a recap. Sounds a bit like confirming things via the "Previously on Lost" intros.

If he is dead then I'll just have to hope that Moenghus as some weird genetically programmed hatred going on :)

[Shryke]

His death is clear but not confirmed.

He SHOULD be dead, but there's extremely plausible wiggle room if Bakker plans to bring him back.

[red snow]

Just checked the text and it can indeed be read as he slits his own throat. He mentions that's his intention but I was thrown by him talking to skin-serwe. The darkness engulfed them is slightly vague in an end of sopranos way. I mean you could also say it was suggesting the thing that drives everyone took over, or it simply became dark.

Oh well, I'll miss that emo-serial rapist, which i never thought would be possible given what he does in TDTCB.

[Ski the Swift]

Yeah, I should have qualified my earlier post by stating that the "What has come before" probably has certain subjective elements embedded within it (e.g. "and go mad"). But I still think that the comment about Cnaiur's death is true.

As to whether the synopsis is predicated on Akka's thoughts and beliefs, I am not so sure. Is there some textual evidence to support that Swiftie?

Wait, I forgot the "What Has Come Before" bit wasn't from Akka but another point of view. Either way though its quite obvious they want us to think a few things, as you even pointed out with the "and go mad" comment.

Even though I tend to lean towards Cnaiur being dead, I wouldn't be surprised if we find him popping up somewhere because of his death's (or lack of) ambiguity.

[red snow]

Wait, I forgot the "What Has Come Before" bit wasn't from Akka but another point of view. Either way though its quite obvious they want us to think a few things, as you even pointed out with the "and go mad" comment.

Even though I tend to lean towards Cnaiur being dead, I wouldn't be surprised if we find him popping up somewhere because of his death's (or lack of) ambiguity.

I never realised the "What has come before" were POVs and just took them as straight forward narration. No-pne actually saw Cnaiur die if that's the case. Those segments are useful as i didn't realise Kellhus was after Esmenet explicitly for breeding until i said so in the recap.

They could always skin-spy him. It won't be Cnaiur but he would still be as useful as the real deal in helping win over the Scylvendi to the Consult. That's if they even need any persuading.

[lokisnow]

I don't really remember the argument for why the what has come before is a pov or not, but interpreting them as pov rather than omniscient just doesn't ring true to the structure and purpose of a "previously on." segment.

[Borque]

First, I think Cnaiür's end in PoN was excellently executed and that he is firmly dead.

I can't really see Cnaiür "winning the Scylvendi over" either, whether he is the real thing or a skin-spy. He has a couple of major credibility issues to deal with.

Despite his general badassness he was basically an outcast when he left the Scylvendi lands. Spending time helping their ancient enemy is not going to help either.

[Paxter]

I don't really remember the argument for why the what has come before is a pov or not, but interpreting them as pov rather than omniscient just doesn't ring true to the structure and purpose of a "previously on." segment.

Some summaries on this point from earlier threads:

Trisk:

This has been discussed and opinions vary. First of all, not everyone is exactly sure how literally the "what has come before" section ought to be interpreted. It states clearly that Kellhus went insane. Does that definitively mean that he did? Or does it just mean that he did in the eyes of Moenghus? Despite many theories to the contrary I think that it is still possible as you say that Kellhus really means to destroy the Consult for the sake of saving the world.

Shryke:

I take "What Has Come Before" as essentially "What you should think has happened" and not "What has happened". (So, basically, after reading the text, WHCB is a description of what you should been thinking happened. It is, afterall, for people who haven't read the first trilogy/a refresher, so it makes sense for it to put you in the same place as those who just read it.)

The end of TTT heavily implies that Cnauir is dead and Kellhus is, on some level, insane. But we could be wrong.